"Sniper" infantry and Hetzer

[Newskenger]

It has been a long time since the Hetzer's penetration power has been nerfed and since that moment almost all arguments for this lost it's justification.

The KV-85 buff isn't that old and a big discussion was spent on this topic.

I'm asking me if it won't make more sense to renew the Hetzer's old power.

Both vehicles, the KV-85's and the Hetzer's stats (armor or penetration) were changed because of the missing reason to buy it. Two solutions were found, a buff for the Soviet tank and a nerf for the German tank destroyer.
To sum up the explanation for the Hetzer's one (as this is the thread mainly about):

1. No difference between Hetzer and Stug IV
2. Germany get a early antitank vehicle

But the situation has changed completely. There is no Stug IV any more. Now Germany got a Stug III with a completely different pentration power - even to the Panzer IV Ausf. H - and a little worse hull form (compared to the Stug IV - but this is not a criticism about the Stug III). The argument that Germany needed an early antitank vehicle was true however the Panzer IV Ausf. H only is 50 points away and has a far better gun which can bee seen in the Hetzer's difficulties with penetrating only slightly angled T-34 or even Shermans (not at close range). The Hetzer weaknesses on the other side can't be avoided: Detracking (the price for the low silhouette and typical for tank destoryer) and it's lower front (the weak spot could easily be penetrated by Shermans for example).

So I think it won't be a big deal to give the Hetzer back it's old power or a part of it because of the facts above. You would have the options of choosing a tank or a tank destroyer with the same gun as it was the situation before with the Stug IV and Pz IV Ausf. H (after the Hetzer nerf and before the Stug III introduction). Now it's more a linear decision and no tactical.
I know there will be some arguments mentioned again that the Hetzer is now a little breakthrough "tank" but this is the consequence of the nerf and should not be intended for a tank destroyer.

And the KV-85, i don't know why it on the other side was buffed. It is now in the same situation like the Hetzer was before and this is fine? I don't think so. (but this dicussion has it's own thread)

[Evilsausage]

I think the old Hetzer penetration was a bit too high then what it really had irl. So i guess thats why it got reduced.
But I would not mind if the Hetzer just got a bit cheaper so i would have a better reason to get it vs early T-34s and Shermans.

Panzer IV G could also need some love. I just never get a reason to buy it, it can't support like the T-34s and Shermans, it has rather poor mobility for a medium tank and has really thin armor and only 130 range. At long ranges 120+ even the Sherman normally wins vs it.
It does however have a pretty nice gun, but i just find that its uses is too few and just become obsolete so fast.

[Newskenger]

I totally support this position but why was it too high? In every book, website I searched it was either said: "same" or "nearly same" penetration and around 15 mm less than the Pz IV Ausf. H in Assault Squad is a huge difference. It it also is worse than the Pz IV Ausf. G.
So the differences are poles apart.
To the Pz IV G - i never built it and won't built this tank because of the reasons you mentioned. An angled T-34 is a perfect support tank and the Pz IV G.... no ^^

[Norbo]

The Hetzer is truly a sad vehicle. It's supposed to be the little brother of the StuG, a frontal tank killer with solid frontal armour and OK gun. Well, it has nether.

60mm frontal armour with excellent sloping sounds very good in paper: even if the gun was medicore, you'd still be able to get close enough to score a kill. The problem is that the paper doesn't mention that around 35% of the frontal armour (the entire lower hull) is considerably weaker. This makes the Hetzer vulnerable to the very tanks it's supposed to counter (T-34:s, Shermans, Cromwells) in frontal engagements.

Maybe the Hetzer could go infantry-support then? Nope, the side armour effectively prevents this: it can be penetrated by any AT-gun from max distance at considerable angles. You can't do much supporting, since you'll have to focus all your attention on the Hetzer if it's in the fighting area.

Honestly I can't see why the Hetzer shouldn't get back it's old gun. At 500MP it's in the same prize class with the H, but lacks a turret, has unreliable frontal armour, almost no side armour. Was this vehicle actually a problem back then? Atleast lowering the CP from 23 to 18 is mandatory, it's clearly a light TD.

PS. Newskenger is right, in reality the PAK39 was comparable to the KWK40 -/STUK40 L48 in terms of raw power. But we're talking about balancing a tactics game, not a simulator.

[Hartmann]

Was this vehicle actually a problem back then?

Nope

[triumph]

Hetzer nerfs:
Gun
Reload Time
Top LMG

Reason?
Beats me.

Is it fun?
No.
Was it fun?
Yes.
Is it ever used anymore?
Maybe once in a blue moon against British.

[alex0809]

I was already pretty angry at the Hetzer nerf back when they did it, I understand why they did it but I hated it so much not only for gameplay reasons (triumph is spot on obviously, it went from a great but still pretty balanced unit to an unusably bad unit) - no, but it is also a completely deliberate nerf that makes no sense if you compare its gun to the other 75mms in game.
I know that AS is not supposed to be a simulator, but I despise these deliberate changes to units just for the sake of changing SOMETHING.

Also...
LOOK AT IT! It's goddamn beautiful! WHY WOULD YOU NERF IT?!?

[Evilsausage]

yup i also really enjoyed that tank, loved its mobility and when it managed to deflect 85mm rounds.
Right now its kinda useless just because its so expensive and isn't even that effective vs T-34s and Shermans. Especially when its out of APCR rounds.

So yeah it really needs some kind of buff.

[DasBlutDK]

A slight buff for the Hetzers gun would definitely be nice. It's pretty weak at the moment. You have to engage pretty much all targets head on. All most no angled shots are effective at the moment. I would also increase the reload time of the mg even more, so you can't use it as an MG carrier to hold flags. It would also be realistic, since the MG couldn't be reloaded from the inside.

[Newskenger]

It would fit to it's role as a tank destroyer. So an increase of the reload time would be fine BUT only in combination with a gun buff. Otherwise the Hetzer would get more useless than it is now.