The cost of Rangers???

[CzaD]

There is a huge discussion about elite and regular infantry in Realism in infantry combat thread; however since so many different aspects are mentioned there I am afraid some of the issues just get lost in the lengthy discourse.

I noticed that some argue that their cost is right and frequently compare it to the cost of 2 regular infatry squads.

So let's have a closer look at the cost of Rangers compared to 2 German reg. infatry squads and let's see if you think they are well priced?

Rangers:
MP: 375
CP: 35
Weapons: 2x LMG, 6x M2 Carbine,
2x Johnson rifles
AP nades: 28
AT nades: 12
TNT:2
AT weapons: 2x M18 rifle


German Reg. Infantry:
MP: 165
CP: 26
Weapons: 6 x Mauser, MG-42, 3 x MP-40
AP nades: 12
AT nades: 3
TNT: none
AT weapons: none


Do you think buying 2 German Regular Infantry squads against one squad of Rangers is a good idea?

Not really? There are many reasons why not:

1. Although you might be happy with the fact that you pay 45MP less for 2 Reg. squads, 2 Reg. squads take 17CP more!!! 17CP gives you a lot of options for a decent support for your Rangers: you can choose from all light tanks like Chaffee, M19-13CP or you can get mortar- 5CP, AT-guns- 5CP etc). In CP limited games like 80 or 100, 17 CP is huge and you really have to use your CP wisely to get the winning combo!!!.
2. Do you think you are getting just 10 men? You’re wrong. Their higher HP makes up for at least 15 regular soldiers.
3. Do you need to support your Rangers if they face only 2 Reg. squads? Not really. They easily outgun them at max range coz they have automatic weapons and 5 star accuracy, plus the fact that they outrage six MP-40 men. Once you dispatch MG-42 men which can be done easily with Johnson LMGs, the rest are just sitting ducks. At close range, the Rangers have faster shooting weapons, plus they can chuck some nades (regulars are much more vulnerable to them than elite; you won’t kill a Ranger with a AP nade!!!).

4. Apart from being able to easily own two squads of regulars, they also have more nades than them and they are equipped with AT weapons like TNT and M18. M18 can be used against infantry too: to blow up their cover or just like a AP nade but with 40m range.



In infantry only games, it is easy to see that banking for Elite pays off rather than buying to regular squads, coz not only they easily overpower regulars but they can also receive more support due to their lower CP. In all weapons games, if there are many big guns on the map, you don’t want to use Elite too much. It is better to buy cheap infantry for scouting and invest in tanks or art, but ones the enemy guns are silenced you can buy Elite to easily clear the area of any remaining enemy souls. However, if you face less experienced players, Elite infantry men can easily turn into heroes by killing not only infantry but tanks too.

So honestly, do you think they are well priced? In higher resource settings you don’t need to wait for their availability, but you can buy them straight away.

[Ric313]

yes

[Evilsausage]

First i thought this poll actually was about rangers being overpriced not underpriced. Nothing wrong with the price of rangers atm, they should definatly not be any more expensive.

Besides why are you only talking about rangers? You don't even mention the Panzergrenadiers that are actually better then the Rangers.

As it is atm, i have found that regular infantry with the support of an armored car normaly does just as good work as a elite infantry squad. If not better.
The only really nice thing about em is the AT weapons they get. If noobs lose tanks cuz of em, well then they just learned a good lesson.

[triumph]

You don't buy a second regular squad as Germany.

[CzaD]

Of course, it would be nice to read some nicely formed arguments why you think their price is justified.

Definitely they are not underpriced?

Are they overpriced? Well, not necessarily. EvilS is right that once light vehicles are introduced to the game (not to mention other bigger guns and equipment) elite soldiers turn into red splats as easily as the regulars. In EvilS’s reg. infantry and light vehicle combo, the vehicle is the killer and the regular infantry are just to provide LOS or serve as bait for the elite to open fire and give away their positions. You won’t see much of infantry combat in this example. Basically, it’s an illustration how easy it is to dispatch unsupported infantry.

However, if you are looking at infantry only combat (let’s take all jeeps, HMGs, mortars etc out of this equation), one squad of elite is much better value for money than two regular infantry squads and they don’t need additional HP to easily win the shoot-out with them.

I just wanted to turn your attention to the fact that their superhuman HP may not be justified. When you add up their HP, in fact, it amounts to much more than 10 regular soldiers. And let’s not forget about their superior equipment, awesome accuracy and the fact that they are not easily suppressed but they have plenty of guns to suppress regulars, and that’s all for 17CP less than 2 reg. squads! The additional HP just seems like too much for infantry shootouts with regular infantry coz it makes them invisible and you don’t need any skills to win the fights. That’s in infantry only games. In all weapons games, like I said before, their additional HP doesn’t prevent them from dying as quickly as any other infantry in the game if you don’t have any skills. However, seeing Elite dying form a AP nade, esp. when they are hiding in craters (I don't think AP nades have been designed against regular infantry only) would make the game more skilful and realistic. Do we have to use two AP nades to get the job done?

[triumph]

LMG x3 +

That's what they're made to face.

100 rifles is stupidity.

[CzaD]

Judging by how Rangers or any other elite in the game are equipped, they are meant to effectively deal with both with infantry and armour.

They don’t need extra HP for both of the tasks. Superior weapons, accuracy and resistance to suppression is enough to make them worth the price. The extra HP just makes them OP and the game less skilful. As for dealing with armour, it is the same as with any other infantry and additional HP is off little use here again: if you don’t do it skilfully but charge tanks head on, then you just waste your soldiers. Regular infantry with standard HP can kill tanks just as well; however, Elite have the benefit of using their AT rifles so they can kill a tank at 40m range.

I do believe that removing the unrealistic HP will make the game more fun and competitive. I enjoy the early game and late game most in infantry only mode coz it is all about skills. However, I hate the middle part when I see how Elite, in absolutely in every situation, with no skilful play at all, own the regulars.

[Ossian]

First, you forgot to mention that regulars get 10 sandbags, which increase hp by .65, increase accuracy significantly, and allow ducking for complete protection. Elite squads don't get sandbags at all. That means when elites capture a battle zone they have to rely on any if any cover the map provides, while regs get custom cover.

Second you keep mentioning infantry only, I'm all for everyone to be able to the way they like, but the imbalances spoken of about elites dont apply in normal games where there is always a vehicle or at-gun on the field.

The reason people talk about buying vehicles is because you can buy a reg squad and a half track to kill elites and still come out spending leshs points.

Look forward to your response.

[CzaD]

Finally, someone who can type more than a sentence.

Sandbags, I dare you to have a shoot out with me. But I tried it with my brother to know the results.

First of all, you forget that I could use cover like fences etc. But even without the cover at all elite outrages the SMG regulars and with 5 star accuracy I can take out all the regular infatry one by one. Plus I have 2 LMG in the Rangers to suppress you regular infantry (who are just tooo easy to suppress) so I can make one ranger ran with his excellent stamina and throw nades at the soldiers hiding behind the sandbags. Honestly, sandbags are tricky and they are not an answer to elite.

[Ossian]

Try the F5 key, it makes all infantry duck in cover, reload, and pop up to fire the whole clip, they won't stop firing until 10 seconds have passed, even if they've been shot.

F5 + left click the area you want to suppress.

I'm not sure the results will differ, but its worth a try.