BUILDABLE TRENCHES

[3l3ctr0]

BUILDABLE TRENCHES

In a early screenshot of Men of War Assault Squad i saw a button to build TRENCHES it was located in the special units building menu of the Soviet Union alongside the WARDOGS ? .
I think i would be awsome to at least one engeneer like unit Infantry or Truck which is able to built provisorical trenches i think the easiest way is to build them like the sandbags in multiplayer.
There are allready some simple trenches to be found in the editor which look like they were dug seconds before.
If at least some units could build/dig foxholes or simple trenches (without complex woodden wall-stuff/no bunkers like in the mod this is really to much) this would be really awsome and this would also be a great leap in realism because the first thing the infantry does if they put up defensive positions is not to built snadbags but dig simple holes or small trenches for cover (also for machineguns (and antitank guns) trench-like defensive positions would be much more realistic if on ground that can be dug up).
Of course those trenches and hole must only be possible to built at spots where its acctually possible to dig up the ground so not on streets or rock etc (if possible) so on places where its not possible to dig holes it is still possible to built up sandbags as an alternative.

Trenches or foxholes are just way more realistic for infantry defending a (hiding/dug in) positions in the forest etc than this artificial looking sandbags above the groung .

thx for ure community work DMS


3l3ctr0

[Spinewire]

While I would not mind seeing them myself as I would love to be able to properly dig in with trenches, sandbags, barbed wire and dragons teeth.

From what I have read on these forums people seem to be all over realism like white on rice, so I am guessing they would not be a fan of the idea and ultra quick trench construction.

Might be nice to have frontline maps start of bare then be given a few mins to set up your trenches etc to the way you want them.

On a side note, when placing sandbags is there away of just dragging out a line and getting it where you want it rather than having it start at one of your soldiers.

[3l3ctr0]

I think there should be foxhole for infantrists that are dug quite quick as fast as the sandbag are built may be a litle slower.
The trenches should be built by a special unit or the tools needed to build a trench sould be in a the engeneer vehicle - digging trenches of course should take a while
maybe there should also be the possibility for MGs to dig inin a small fast built foxhole-like position especially for those guns which do not have an armored shield to protect the gunners

thx for ure interest

3l3ctr0

[OpecGER]

I'm quite happy that there are no trenches atm and i hope they won't change that.

The Company of Heroes veterans will remember the nightmare attacking a fortified British position with trenches supported by hidden mg's and at guns. To crack such a nut, the attacker was usually forced to bring heavy tanks and artillery to bear. Long story short, the introduction of trenches has caused coh to become a grind fest.

We don't need that in AS, not after the shift from the late game heavy tank spam in mow to the more infantry concentrated gameplay in AS.

[Hartmann]

There were probably good reasons why they were taken out, I don't think they'll ever be back.

[Uberscooby]

I'm quite happy that there are no trenches atm and i hope they won't change that.

The Company of Heroes veterans will remember the nightmare attacking a fortified British position with trenches supported by hidden mg's and at guns. To crack such a nut, the attacker was usually forced to bring heavy tanks and artillery to bear. Long story short, the introduction of trenches has caused coh to become a grind fest.


yeap trenches don't = fun

[KSchultz]

I'm quite happy that there are no trenches atm and i hope they won't change that.

The Company of Heroes veterans will remember the nightmare attacking a fortified British position with trenches supported by hidden mg's and at guns. To crack such a nut, the attacker was usually forced to bring heavy tanks and artillery to bear. Long story short, the introduction of trenches has caused coh to become a grind fest.

We don't need that in AS, not after the shift from the late game heavy tank spam in mow to the more infantry concentrated gameplay in AS.

Apples and oranges. The combat system in this game works in an entirely different manner than CoH, so the comparision isnt all that valid.
That said, while I would like to see buildable trenches, they shouldnt be easily constructable.
Perhaps a specialist vehicle to do the digging, or perhaps digging supplies could be found in the engineer truck. If its the latter, then there shouldnt be a lot of supplies inside one truck. Enough for one small trench.

[OpecGER]

Apples and oranges. The combat system in this game works in an entirely different manner than CoH, so the comparision isnt all that valid.


would you mind explaining that?



That said, while I would like to see buildable trenches, they shouldnt be easily constructable.
Perhaps a specialist vehicle to do the digging


you want a special truck, transporting three shovels?

[triumph]

this game does superduper defenses like tank traps, wire, and everything else except sandbag lines terribly and the standard play doesn't need that stuff to remain fun.

[Tab3076]

Meh. I'd like to see it and experiment with it at least. Makes sense, imho

[Uberscooby]

You can already see what happens with trenches on maps that come with them. They are over powered.

[Tab3076]

You can already see what happens with trenches on maps that come with them. They are over powered.

:sadflat:

Snipers, Mortars, Grenades, Flamethrowers, Machine Guns, Sub-Machine Guns, Howitzers, Tank Cannons, Auto-Cannons, etc all counter trenches.

[triumph]

Map design issues for premade stuff. In some cases the trench doesn't mean anything. In others you'll be able to take anything except a direct hit to your units because of space bar ftw.

[3l3ctr0]

I dont think trenches would be over powered - as ure units are forced to stay static/in the trench/at the same place to remain covered wich makes them vulnarable for grenades, arty, snipers, etc. This static strategy of trench warfare also demands a "special" units (not in the meaning of heroes etc) i just think it gives the rifleman a better position in the game because i mostly see people use the smg-gunner assault infantry etc people mostly just use the the simple riflemen because they are cheap not because they have a longer effective range (slower shooting).
Trenches would add some more possibilities to use the ordinary rifleman as most of the WW2 - infantry were just rather slow shooting mid to long range riflemen armed with K98k /Mosin-Nagant/Lee-Enfield except the russian's whole PPSH-smg-assault-regiments (avtomatchiks ?).
Of course one can argue that there is enough cover (awsome coversystem) all around the map(s) and there is no need for buildable trenches or foxholes if there is also the possibility (for riflemen)to build sandbags wich is in my opinion unrealistic one soldier carrying 10 or more (empty) sandbags in his backpack. So those sandbags maybe should be replaced by foxholes as hey are more common.
The next thing is filling sandbags takes its time as a sandbag that is not totally full is worthless and does not even stop a snowball/pistol bullet so the time u need to build a sandbag wall is also notreally realistic but i dont mind that detail at least infantry can build some artificial cover.
So as the time to build a proper sandbag wall cant be truely imported into the game there is no need of ultra long building times for foxholes or simple-simple trenches of course digging should takes a litle longer than throwing sandbags off a truck During this period the digging soldiers will/should be very vulnerable.
I think u guys all know this awsome feeling of tension when u build fortifications, lay mines etc
this feeling of uncertainty wether u can finish ure "project" before the foe is comming and of course this feeling of satisfaction if u have suceeded in fortifying ure position when the enemy arrives (and is repelled).
For my self this feeling is one of the awsomest feelings in this game and with trenches and foxholes this tension can even be boosted as it takes longer to dig holes but in return they should also be harder to destroy and ure infantry is protected betterharder to hit than behind sandbags rising from the ground.

well thats a long text i hope its not to repetitive and convinces some of U

Yours sincerely 3l3ctr0 ^^

[OpecGER]

There´s an ugly truth beneath the shiny new surface of MOW Assault Squad: it will never be balanced. Never.
Not as perfect as we want it to be, too restricted are the resources of a small team like DMS.

Like nearly every RTS out there, it will either favour slightly (sometimes drastically) the attacker or the defender of a position. And every new feature moves the balance a bit towards one or the other. The question is this, what should we favour?
An agressive gameplay with a steady forth and back, or one rewarding bunkering?

A trench will move the favour towards the defender and provide him with superior cover, and like 3l3ctr0 has already said, there is indeed enough cover all around the maps at the moment.

[counters to trenches]


Snipers, Mortars, Grenades, Flamethrowers, Machine Guns, Sub-Machine Guns, Howitzers, Tank Cannons, Auto-Cannons, etc all counter trenches.

If you are in range to shoot at em means that they´re most likely in range too, but in perfect cover while you are crawling in no man´s land.

Howitzers are too inaccurate to achieve a reliable direct hit.

@others + the Howitzers
terrible use/cost relation.
Kill a 2400 points Kingtiger with the AT grenade of a 12 P SMG dude --> sweet
Need a 900 P artillery gun to kill a 10 P Rifleman in a trench --> o_O

[triumph]

electro your whole thing is trenches will make rifles better.
Okay, how about MP-44s. Enjoy getting those handed to you. You won't want to see that.


The lack of sim city has a lot to do with the original design and the games pace. This game really doesn't need sim city and it's really not on a large enough scale where sim city won't be much of a problem.

[Hartmann]

There´s an ugly truth beneath the shiny new surface of MOW Assault Squad: it will never be balanced. Never.
Not as perfect as we want it to be, too restricted are the resources of a small team like DMS.

What you describe has nothing to do with balance.

Timing and executing attacks is probably one of the more complex and difficult things in MoW, but it is something you can learn. There is a way to take care of every defensive position, it just takes experience to know how to deal with them.

[OpecGER]

What you describe has nothing to do with balance.


why?



Timing and executing attacks is probably one of the more complex and difficult things in MoW, but it is something you can learn. There is a way to take care of every defensive position, it just takes experience to know how to deal with them.


Every defense can be beaten, its the question what it takes and what the use/cost ratio is in the end.
Or can you win every game just by using a lone rifleman, because you know how to handle him?

[Hartmann]

Well, when talking about unbalanced things you usually are refering to units or capabilities of a certain faction that are simply better then units or capabilities of other factions. Defences being unreasonably tough against attacks, I would put in the poor game design category :)



Every defense can be beaten, its the question what it takes and what the use/cost ratio is in the end.
Or can you win every game just by using a lone rifleman, because you know how to handle him?

Yes, sometimes you simply have to realize that attacking an enemy position will be stupid because it'll take you to much effort and casualties. At that point it's usually best to just leave that side be for a while, and back up a teammate on a flank that is much weaker defended.

-For the defending person-
If nobody is attacking your elaborate defences, and the guy who used to be opposing you is now double teaming some other guy on your team, there are 2 things you can do. You either break up your defences in order to use the units to attack your now undefended flank, or you move those units to help your teammate that is being double teamed. Either way you are going to have to break your defences up. Because you can't possibly have enough CP to have a sizeable amount of units standing on defence while also attacking.

The thing about defences is that they can never cover an entire map. There are always possibilities to attack weakly defended areas, and this will often automatically lead to your enemy puling units out of defences in order to counter your attack.

This is all caused by CP, and managing your own and judging how the enemy is spending his CP is extremely important.

[Minenfeld!]

Historically you need a 3 to 1 advantage of attackers over defenders to crack a well fortified position. That holds true in game. You have a lot of tools at your disposal. Use them.

[Tab3076]

Howitzers are too inaccurate to achieve a reliable direct hit.

@others + the Howitzers
terrible use/cost relation.
Kill a 2400 points Kingtiger with the AT grenade of a 12 P SMG dude --> sweet
Need a 900 P artillery gun to kill a 10 P Rifleman in a trench --> o_O

If you need a howitzer to kill riflemen in a trench, you're doing something wrong.

[Elando]

Howitzers are too inaccurate to achieve a reliable direct hit.

@others + the Howitzers
terrible use/cost relation.
Kill a 2400 points Kingtiger with the AT grenade of a 12 P SMG dude --> sweet
Need a 900 P artillery gun to kill a 10 P Rifleman in a trench --> o_O

If you need a howitzer to kill riflemen in a trench, you're doing something wrong.

Morters are far more effect in this respect.

However, there are some defences that are seemingly impossible to crack. A well hidden tank thats hulled down can win a match if its got people to repair it, unless, by some miricle, your arty manages to hit it dead on.

Trenches are the bane of some games but I do think that fox holes would be a nice idea. Possibly the option of upgradable defences such as converting the bog standard "hole in the ground" fox hole into something better by adding stuff like wood to make the hole more stable, maybe even a simple log roof for extra cover from grenades and even some kind of camoflage netting for concealment would certainly be interesting...

[Tab3076]

I've been playing frontline for a while, and I have yet to encounter any defense that's seemingly impossible. Tanks, even in those "tank-pits" aren't invulnerable, while they're harder to hit when they're done for and turrets typically are quite weak.

Though, anyone is much more than welcome to show me their impenetrable defense. :grin:

[OpecGER]

If you need a howitzer to kill riflemen in a trench, you're doing something wrong.

you suggested the use of howis to take out trenches


@Hartmann
ah, I understand what you mean. Still think its a balance question too, but hey, a question of personal taste

And you are right about defending the entire map, that wont work on big maps with a lot of points to capture and maybe not the full number of players.

Let's imagine a 2v2 map and equal skilled players. One team wins the first engagement by luck (e.g. lucky hit on a tank) and takes 2 of the 3 points.

What should they do now? If they can't get the third point, they regroup and defend their points, throwing down some trenches around the points. The other team is forced to attack this or they will run out of points.They concentrate on one point and are outnumbering the defending player. But he is in superior position and has perfect cover, the attacker won't be able to take him out before the second defender arrives with 50 or 75 % of his troops (the rest are defending his point).

That's by no means an impenetrable fortress, e.g. they could defend too and tech up to spend a considerable amount of points for an rocket luncher and clear the area, lucky shots will take out some or all of the trenches.

But the question arises, how will that make the game more fun? How will trenches ad something positive to the game that we don't have already without to jeopardize the gameplay?

[Hartmann]

Oh don't think I want buildable trenches, I don't think they suit gameplay at all.

[FFA702]

I agree,no buildable trenshes.But there should be some new option for the sandbag to allow us to make complex fortification in less time..