HEAT Ammo

[guynumber7]

Now idk about you guys, but HEAT ammo would be a very good addition to AS.

They would be somewhat inaccurate shells that dot he same amount of penetration regardless of range, and would only be available to some units that historically had it.

It would make short paralleled tanks like the Scott and PZ4E and Su122 and what not much more useful vs tanks at longer ranges, and would be interesting to see as you would have to take a chance, close in with ap or try to snipe with heat.

Im probably jaded cause i play GSM a lot but i think it would be a good idea.

[pedro0930]

Don't see why not.

I think another good addition would be the White phosphorus round (WP). It would have the same vision blocking effect of smoke shell, but also cause crew contuse if hit directly. It would make more sense for M4A1/A2 to carry these than APCR.

[Hartmann]

Indirect HEAT fire? It's not like these tanks aren't already immensely dominating versus infantry, I don't want to see them lobbing HEAT onto the top armour of heavies. That would make them a little to good.

[salandtwig]

I think we probably have enough types of shells now (less the possible inclusion of smoke),

As with other things in a WW2 game, where would you stop? i think the current balance is fine, here are all the variations from ww2 - just to show you how mad it could get.

AP.
Ballistic capped AP projectiles.
AP capped (APC).
Armor piercing capped ballistic capped (APCBC)
Hyper velocity AP (HVAP)
Armor piercing discarding sabot (APDS)
HEAT - High Explosive anti tank
HEP - High explosive Plastic
HE
HESH - High Explosive Squash head
APCR

Too many options methinks :?

[guynumber7]

GSM has heat and it works great.

And half of those shells are redundant anyways. This game gives APCR to everyone when in reality only germans would get it and brits would get APDS and USA HVAP.

[Blub0r2k]

HVAP = APCR ;) only another name for the same thing ;)

[guynumber7]

HVAP = APCR ;) only another name for the same thing ;)


Yeah thats kinda wat i meant

[DemonicSpoon]

I'd be wary of adding EVEN MORE ammo types to AS. Even now it's kinda obnoxious to micromanage (NO NO DON'T LOAD HE AGAINST THE TIGER ARGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH).

AS is pretty historically accurate as an RTS can be, but you still need to exercise caution when adding new mechanics and how they affect your gameplay.

[Harrier]

The more ammo types you have the higher the chance of accidently loading the wrong one, or looking away for just a second only for the AI to use that time to load ammo type X when you really badly need ammo type Y.

APCR is a very nice addition, but I don't think I'd want it to go any further.

[Minenfeld!]

Wahh too many ammo types wahh.

Come on. There's three. HEAT would make a good addition.

[Ludovsky]

Adding HEAT ammo would actually make easily possibly for someone to later add Italy to the game.

Pretty much 90% of italy's antitank weapons seemingly almost depended on HEAT to deal with the allies... which has one wonder how much of such shells their tanks carried. The semovente series(except for the 90/53 which seems to have done most of it,s work with "conventional" shells) seems to have had a slightly infamous use of said HEAT weapons.

[guynumber7]

Italys tanks have terrible armor though.

[Ludovsky]

Depends, early tanks... certainly.

However, some of the late war(well, for Italy's 1943 at least...) and prototype designs weren't too shabbily designed.

The P40 was basically the love affair between a T-34 and Panzer 4(which probably would be closer to the german general's specifications when they asked for a "german T-34" after meeting the thing for the first time), whereas the Celeres Saharianna prototype project looked almost like a cross between a crusader and T-34, one that was meant to use a 75mm gun.

And the P43 project were pretty interesting, the original design basically being a tank with 80-100mm sloped armor using a 75mm gun, whereas the "bis" project fielded a 90mm gun(possibly based on the canone da 90/53)... in fact, the P43 Bis tank's concepts was once described by a friend as looking almost akin to some of the early MBT that came after WW2.


Though this is kinda a moot point since it is unlikely italy will be made for the game(except maybe through an expansion pack), though the inclusion of HEAT would at least make it easier for modder to bring them(and other major HEAT-using nations, if any) in, though.

[Hanomag]

You forgot that there is NO WAY a"prototype" unit will make it in to the game.

-H

[Blub0r2k]

including HEAT Ammo by hand isn't really a problem for someone who knows what hes doing ;)

[Ludovsky]

You forgot that there is NO WAY a"prototype" unit will make it in to the game.

In which case we might as well forget the japanese altogether due to the difficulties it would be to manage a japanese faction without a chi-ri(of which even the first production tank wasn't completed, unlike the chi-to) or Ho-Ri II(whose prototype never left paper)... except, as far as I know, they're still planning to be included in the game as a faction.

Also, unless I recall wrong, I had mentionned the italians as less "the italians should be included in the game alongside HEAT" and more the fact that HEAT rounds being present would be already one less thing to worry about for modders who might be interested in settling down the architecture a "balanced" italian faction might require(generally italians could do little to a lot of allied tanks, but with HEAT most of even their conventional tanks could at least deal with the conventional allied tanks, and with the heavier guns(such as most 75mm semovente) even some of the heavier allies designs could now be hopefully defeated iirc).

And the black prince might wishes to disgress with your statement.
If anything, this is a moot point that has now little to do with the conversation. Though HEAT(since they are already present with the likes of bazookas) could be interesting to try out with armored vehicles.

[guynumber7]

gunna have to agree with ludvosky here.

prototypes are an important part of MOW.

In vanilla, UK isint very good without centurion/turtle.

USA can live without T29 but it is helpful at times.

Japan would be so bad they would be unplayable without prototypes.

soviets could live without IS3 but again it is useful

and germany has all real units except strumtiger which is very situational.

[Hanomag]

umm...I was kidding when I said no prototypes. I thought it was funny to say after reading through a few pages of Black Prince debate. I have no prob with prototypes as I feel they are needed to a degree to balance some factions (and some eras).

Without the historic terrain restrictions, Japanese tanks would not stand up long against US heavies.

Germans have a Maus that never got into combat.

-H

[BigDawgKS]

Sorry if I am digging up old news, but I think the inclusion of HEAT ammunition is something for the devs to seriously consider.

The properties of HEAT should be:
-Penetration power is independent of range
-Significant drop in penetration power at less than 90 degree angle hits
-It is high explosive, and should have some effectiveness against personnel and unarmored targets (though less than normal HE)
-HEAT rounds should typically be more innaccurate than AP, have slower trajectories and shorter max range
-When fired from rifled guns, accuracy may improve but penetration power is reduced (except in some cases where special designs allowed HEAT rounds to be fired from rifled guns without imparting a spin)

The most important for this game are the first 3. Also, HEAT could be used in lower velocity guns to give them better AT capability.

The primary argument for the use of HEAT in Men of War however is in infantry AT weapons, namely the Bazooka, Panzerschreck, Panzerfaust, and PIAT, instead of their current ballistic damage model. Aside from simply being more realistic, it would increase the versatility of these weapons.

[SS-Kommando]

HEAT ammo would make a good addition in my opinion, and I don't think that it would pose any threat to game balance, especially since HEAT was often rather sub-standard because of its poor accuracy over distances.


I think another good addition would be the White phosphorus round (WP). It would have the same vision blocking effect of smoke shell, but also cause crew contuse if hit directly. It would make more sense for M4A1/A2 to carry these than APCR.

That's true. Infact, the M4AX(75) Shermans shouldn't be having APCR rounds in the first place. All in all, APCR has been implemented in a very ahistorical manner in AS; tank guns that historically didn't have it have received it, tanks in general -especially the Germans that suffered severe tungsten shortages- have too generous amounts of it, and it merely has 20mm more penetration than standard AP rounds regardless of distance, which doesn't take into account that for many tank guns the APCR shells gradually lost their punch.

Edit: I don't mean to be overly critical if it seems that way. It is of course the developers decision how to balance realism and gameplay. In the end I hope that they will produce a good game that will sell well, since that will also benefit us modders who are not perfectly satisfied with the original game.

[HrcAk47]

Supporting what SS-Kommando has said.

Good idea would be to actually add the HEAT shells, atleast for the sake of Shermans. Their penetration was close to the calibre, and thats 70-75 mm at any range. Bigger spread and shorter range could be given to compensate.

[BigDawgKS]

Well, if you want to be fussy about realism and historical accuracy, we should have each individual cartridge size/type for all weapons, instead of just generalized shell diameter and even more generalized small arms ammo. For example, a german Pak 40 would fire a 75x714mm R cartridge, while the american 75mm guns would have a shorter 75x350mm R (unsure of this number) cartridge and were unlikely to be interchangable. Doing this would certainly see each faction with their own unique cartridges, so with the exception of a few british weapons that used german cartridges you wouldn't be able to rearm with another faction's ammo.

Anyway, that can easily be done by modders. This discussion is about HEAT, which I think really should be implemented in Assault Squad.

[Hartmann]

Supporting what SS-Kommando has said.

Good idea would be to actually add the HEAT shells, atleast for the sake of Shermans. Their penetration was close to the calibre, and thats 70-75 mm at any range. Bigger spread and shorter range could be given to compensate.


There would be no reason to use them with those stats.

[guynumber7]

Supporting what SS-Kommando has said.

Good idea would be to actually add the HEAT shells, atleast for the sake of Shermans. Their penetration was close to the calibre, and thats 70-75 mm at any range. Bigger spread and shorter range could be given to compensate.


There would be no reason to use them with those stats.



It would be useful on say the M8 Pack Howister, or other low velocity guns that dont have AP power.

The game dosent have the leEG 18, but i was thinking about that. Or even 105mm field guns.

[SS-Kommando]

There would be no reason to use them with those stats.

Yes, there would. The German Gr.38 Hl/B with 75mm penetration can knock out most medium tanks frontally in the game (all T-34 models, the M4A1 and the Cromwell), unless radical changes to armor penetration, or fictional armor specifications, has been added in AS.

[Hartmann]

About HRCs example, why it's useless there is because regular AP already penetrates 65 at max range for that gun. So what would be the point in having a limited amount of shells that penetrate 70 at shorter range?

The P4s gun is even better, so why use a limited supplied shell with shorter range when an AP shell does better at everything but absolute max range?

I can't really think of any penetration number that does not make them either useless or overpowered, besides having 4 type of shells would be confusing to most players. They would only be useful on some of the low velocity guns, but having HEAT on only a handful of tanks in the game would make it a bit weird. Besides balance considerations, where infantry support tanks would become capable indirect fire AT guns.

I recall them being mentioned a long time ago, sometime before APCR was implemented, but having heard nothing concerning them since I doubt they are still planned.

[SS-Kommando]

About HRCs example, why it's useless there is because regular AP already penetrates 65 at max range for that gun. So what would be the point in having a limited amount of shells that penetrate 70 at shorter range?

It would only be considerably useful for the Panzer IV E in the German arsenal. For the Panzer IV G & H it would only have marginally better penetration at long ranges. Because of this coupled with the HEAT shell's poor accuracy over long distances, it was typically an inferior choice for the long 75mm guns in the actual war, and in MoW it would only be marginally useful for the IV G and H if firing from the max distance.


The P4s gun is even better, so why use a limited supplied shell with shorter range when an AP shell does better at everything but absolute max range?

The 75mm HEAT shell was produced in considerable numbers: http://sturmvogel.orbat.com/GermWeapProd.html

But yes, there would be little point to add it to the Panzer IV G & H if limiting its firing range; a better solution would be to make it very inaccurate at 150m, and have its accuracy lacking already at around 100-110m for that matter to prevent the Panzer IV E from being too strong.

[Hartmann]

I meant limited ingame, I'd assume tanks would have a small amount of them like APCR :P

I understand they would have have a use in certain situations, but for adding a new type of ammo I do think it needs to have obvious and somewhat consistent cons and pros. APCR is good in the sense that it scales with the AP shell of tanks, rather then being something that is completely independent of normal AP penetration values. It does the same for every tank, and -30 +20 is something everyone can remember.

I'm trying to figure out if there's any way of making HEAT practical ingame, but every option just seems a bit meh.
I do believe a realistical implementation of HEAT would be out of the question, it would be overpowered for some tanks, useless for others and completely confusing for anyone not into this kind of stuff.
If you'd do it by caliber (IE all 75mm guns have HEAT that penetrates 70mm) you'd have to look at each individual tank with a 75mm gun and adjust accuracy and range for HEAT to get something that makes sense gameplay wise. Which would be an absolute nightmare both for balancing and for the average player to figure out.
So you would probably be left with having to make it scale with the AP shell of whatever gun is firing it, something which APCR already does.


I'm not against implementing a new useful ammo type that could make tank fights more dynamic, it's just that I don't see what interesting mechanic HEAT would bring to the table. Regardless if it's implemented in a historic or arcadey fashion.

[BigDawgKS]

I don't see what interesting mechanic HEAT would bring to the table

That's because you're only thinking about deploying it in the tank vs tank role, where the main advantages of HEAT aren't really needed. For example, infantry AT weapons which don't have enough velocity to use KE projectiles. The Bazooka/Panzerschreck, Panzerfaust, and PIAT all employed HEAT warheads, which ins't properly modelled in Men of War. HEAT would also be more effective against light armor and soft targets.

[guynumber7]

Easy. Longer barreled guns would be more accurate then shorter ones, and higher calibre= more damage, but higher calibre might mean shorter barrel and less accuracy.

And using HEAT is just inherently less accurate then AP, just cause of the shells ballistics (kinda like HE)

[SS-Kommando]

Easy. Longer barreled guns would be more accurate then shorter ones, and higher calibre= more damage, but higher calibre might mean shorter barrel and less accuracy.)

HEAT shells have the same penetration regardless of caliber, so that wouldn't make sense.

Edit: Now that I'm thinking of it, one could always give the HEAT shells of the Panzer IV G & H 100mm penetration and say that it is Gr.38 Hl/C, though.

[BigDawgKS]

HEAT shells have the same penetration regardless of caliber, so that wouldn't make sense.

The caliber of the round determines the diameter of the warhead, which does determine penetration power. Larger diameter means more penetration.


The key to the effectiveness of a HEAT round is the diameter of the warhead. As the penetration continues through the armor, the width of the hole decreases leading to a characteristic "fist to finger" penetration, where the size of the eventual "finger" is based on the size of the original "fist". In general, HEAT rounds can expect to penetrate armor of 150% to 250% of their diameter, and these numbers were typical of early weapons used during World War II. Since the Second World War, the penetration of HEAT rounds relative to projectile diameters has steadily increased as a result of improved liner material and metal jet performance. Some modern examples claim numbers as high as 700%
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_explo ... nk_warhead (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_explosive_anti-tank_warhead)

[SS-Kommando]

The caliber of the round determines the diameter of the warhead, which does determine penetration power. Larger diameter means more penetration.

Excuse me, I confused caliber with barrel length for some reason.

[Zeke Wolff]

The caliber of the round determines the diameter of the warhead, which does determine penetration power. Larger diameter means more penetration.

Not entirely true though. Most of the German (for example) fields guns/howitzers did have access to anti-tank guns, and the lFH18/40 which had a calibre of 105 mm, only managed to penetrate 54mm of armor with its anti-tank round.

One thing that it essential to penetration power, is the length of the barrel. The German 75mm KwK42 L70 had for example better penetration capabilities than the 75mm KwK40 L48 and the difference between these two barrels, is the length (70 vs 48) and the rounds themselves (the rounds for the KwK40 L48 were shorter but fatter than the rounds for the KwK42 L70, to make them easier to handle inside the cramped turret of the Pz4).

The we have the Gerlich type of weapons, which uses a sub-calibre penetration round to gain the same or better penetration than a weapon with a larger calibre. The German 2.8cm sPzB41 anti-tank gun used this kind of round, and it could penetrate 60mm (some sources say as much as 75mm could be penetrated) of armor at a range of 100 metres, whilst the German 5cm KwK38 L/42 (the main tank gun used on the PzKpfw III F Late to PzKpfw III J Early) only managed to penetrate 54mm of armor at the same range with the standard round). And the 4.2cm lePaK41 which also worked on the Gerlich principle, could penetrate 87mm of armor at a range of 500 metres.

~Zeke.

[Hartmann]

He's talking about HEAT I assume, not regular AP.

[BigDawgKS]

Zeke Wolff, I was talking about HEAT, which does not use KE at all for penetration.

Again, the main advantage of HEAT being it's not dependent on KE (and thus high velocities) to cause penetration, meaning it can be deployed by lower velocity weapons. Still, with HEAT it's all about size; larger rounds allows for larger warheads, so it wouldn't be very effective for smaller calibers.

Ideally, HEAT would be deployed on infantry & assault guns to make them effective against armor.

[guynumber7]

I actually really like the 2.8 cm sPZB 41 and i would like to see it in this game, but its not likely, maybe GSM: Assault Squad. Reason is is its a little known weapon that is really cool.

[Rince21]

I like the idea of more ammunition types, but what already somewhere else has been proposed, we would need a button to fix the ammotype selected, so the tanks AI wont change it. this would be the least complicated help, next thing would be "use only HE or AP, dont use HEAT" or something like that, but that I think is too complex. A "dont change ammotype" button should suffice.

[SS-Kommando]

I like the idea of more ammunition types, but what already somewhere else has been proposed, we would need a button to fix the ammotype selected, so the tanks AI wont change it. this would be the least complicated help, next thing would be "use only HE or AP, dont use HEAT" or something like that, but that I think is too complex. A "dont change ammotype" button should suffice.

If I'm not mistaken tanks will only use APCR ammo if directly controlled as it is. In that case what you are mentioning would be no issue.

[crazyofengland]

Why is this a sticky, it the same importance as all the other issues that have been raised...
:?

[SS-Kommando]

Why is this a sticky, it the same importance as all the other issues that have been raised...
:?

In case you haven't noticed, even us playtesters are able to sticky our own topics in this part of the forum. So I assume that the OP has stickied it for some reason.

[crazyofengland]

yeah I know so perhaps the OP would be kind enough to unsticky it.

[guynumber7]

lol i made it a sticky just cause i could xD

[Hartmann]

Then you'd better unsticky it if you could as well hmm?