Default resource settings are Terrible

[DemonicSpoon]

The default resource settings in AS are slow. Very slow. It takes ages before you can call anything in because the game timer is set to an hour and a half.

I'm not even going to elaborate as to why hour and a half games are obnoxious. They're just boring, a MOW game doesn't stay fresh or interesting enough for that long.

But then there's a second, more important problem with the way it works now. Resources come in at a very slight trickle. In the beginning, you can call in an infantry squad and a light field gun or something with a similar cost. This isn't too bad, but the resources come in so slowly that it'll be a fair bit before you can call in -anything- else.

Why is this bad? It turns this war game into rock/paper/scissors. Because you cannot POSSIBLY field a decent amount of troops at any given point of the game (unless you buildup points for >15 minutes), you have to hope any pray that what you brought in counters what your opponent brought in. Oh, and if your first callin (usually infantry and something else) gets bullrushed and killed by, say, an armored car, he can set up on your side of the map and you are out of the game for at least 10 minutes while you build up enough points to get a reasonable force together.

Having a decent amount of points is good. You can call stuff in. People bitch that this makes the game less "tactical", what it actually does is lower the randomness. Because you can actually CALL STUFF IN (and you will never know what your opponent has called in until he starts using it), victory goes to the person who commands his troops better as opposed to someone who, through luck, calls in something that happens to counter anything the opponent fields. It also means that losing one engagement doesn't automatically mean you've lost the game (Or at least get pushed back to your spawn for a significant portion of the game.


My friends and I play with 6000 or 8000 points. Is this a lot? Sure. In fact, we have to compensate by playing on larger maps (we play 2v2 games on 3v3/4v4 maps, for example) because we have a lot of troops floating around, so maybe the way we do it is overdone...I think it's probably just because the default timer is too long, so setting points to that level is necessary to ensure a decent flow throughout the game.

AS isn't fun if you can't call in units. MOW isn't a game designed or balanced around fielding a couple units at a time.

[DemonicSpoon]

Let me give an example of the problem early game.

My normal callin at the start of any game is one infantry squad + one AT gun.

Lets say my opponent calls in an armored car.

Neither of us know where each other is. If he charges his armored car forward, whether it comes in from the right direction for my AT gun to even take a shot at it is purely luck. If I can take the shot, then whether I hit or miss is largely luck (mitigated to some extent, but by no means all, by skill with direct fire).

If LUCK ends up on my side, he's lost his AC and I can now just roll up on his spawn with impunity. He wont be able to seriously challenge me for awhile.

if LUCK works in his favor, all my ****'s wiped out, he gets a free AT gun, and it's even longer before I can challenge him.


With my preferred settings, it's a somewhat important setback (very significant for something decided by pure luck) but I can call in some more troops and still hold my point, and I'd soon have enough to push back on him.

With default settings, you're ****ing done for the next 10 minutes and arguably the game.

[[OoO]No.Mam]

The default resource settings in AS are slow. Very slow. It takes ages before you can call anything in because the game timer is set to an hour and a half.
i agree. incoming resources are too slow. i made the experience that players in defensive have massive problems "coming back". specifically when y have lost your "strongest" (PzIV, T34, M4A1) unit and you must wait eternity long to get new one.

i think the new resource system prefer players in offensive. players in defensive are disadvantage.

[Hartmann]

The problem is that your starting unit is wrong. Starting with an AT gun is exceptionally risky, starting with an AC is often downright dumb in small games. If you chose either of those, you should accept that the first engagement will be all or nothing for you depending on luck. A normal and much safer start would be an infantry squad and a AT rifle/rocket team. After that you can choose to either make an aggresive attack, or hold back your points until you see what the enemy is doing with his points for more certainty on your next buy.

I don't know exactly how the resource system favours being aggresive, but if it does that's a good thing. What fun would the game be if it encouraged sitting back?

[Instinct]

The default resource settings in AS are slow. Very slow. It takes ages before you can call anything in because the game timer is set to an hour and a half.
The max resource distribution happens faster than in vanilla MoW, you receive all resources during 22,5 minutes instead of 24min as in vanilla MoW with 40min max gametime.



I'm not even going to elaborate as to why hour and a half games are obnoxious. They're just boring, a MOW game doesn't stay fresh or interesting enough for that long.
It will be extremely interesting to know how a game lasts 90min in MoW:AS.


With default settings, you're f****** done for the next 10 minutes and arguably the game.
75 MP refund per minute for all of your lost troops, that means in less than 5 minutes all your lost troops are back in your pool and you are equal again with your enemy + the new resources you gained by standard.


My normal callin at the start of any game is one infantry squad + one AT gun.
Maybe the problem is that your opponent or your friend exactly knows that and thus buys an armored car? Why not using AT-rifle, bazooka, or wait for rangers? Maybe a light tank will even do it. The more risky units like an at-gun you choose (that basically can't defend itself against anything without cover fire) the more the game is decided by them dieing or not. However there are many alternatives to an at-gun.

Last but not least, if you feel it's too little resources, there is a button to switch from normal to high resources with 2 mouse clicks.

[DemonicSpoon]

The problem is that your starting unit is wrong. Starting with an AT gun is exceptionally risky, starting with an AC is often downright dumb in small games. If you chose either of those, you should accept that the first engagement will be all or nothing for you depending on luck. A normal and much safer start would be an infantry squad and a AT rifle/rocket team. After that you can choose to either make an aggresive attack, or hold back your points until you see what the enemy is doing with his points for more certainty on your next buy.

I don't know exactly how the resource system favours being aggresive, but if it does that's a good thing. What fun would the game be if it encouraged sitting back?

They can still push with infantry and the winner has the exact same massive advantage. An AC can still wipe an AT rifleman if it's careful.




The max resource distribution happens faster than in vanilla MoW, you receive all resources during 22,5 minutes instead of 24min as in vanilla MoW with 40min max gametime.


...The game timer in AS is 90 minutes, has been since I started playing it.

Do they end up -lasting- that long? Not usually, but sometimes the game will stalemate and stop being interesting...the 40 minute timer in vanilla helped fix this.



Anyway, I just did some labbing and some maths and I think you are right about the income. However, the problem I listed in the OP still stands.

I think however that the problem is mainly that the starting resources aren't enough. I'd also argue for an increase to 4500 or 5000 manpower default, though I guess special units kinda overrides that.

[Orrie]

If game isn't finished in 90mins, you know you're not doing the right strategy.
All maps have a odd number of flags so both teams can't have the same number of flags. (Except if one isn't captured.... :roll: )
So if team 1 holds 2 flags and team 2 holds 3 flags (And keeps them), team 2 will win before 90mins, guaranteed.
The only possible way a 90min match can happen, is that both teams are perfectly even.
Which then would mean that both teams have chosen wrong strategy.

Most of the matches that I've played in, ends around 40-50mins, which makes the new resource system perfect.

[Hartmann]

They can still push with infantry and the winner has the exact same massive advantage. An AC can still wipe an AT rifleman if it's careful.

Yeah if you lose all your units beginning units (which only happens if you are blobbing), don't buy any new ones (a mere 120 for a basic squad), and are playing without adapting to the situation, then yes that is what will happen. I don't know what game you are playing where you get AT guys killed by ACs. It is impossible for an AC to spot an AT man until he fires, and you can always wait with firing until you are sure of a kill.

Also, did you just test different starting builds out a dozen times to familiarize yourself with it between these posts? Or are we just arguing on assumptions.

If you really think the default resources are so bad, you can always just click high resources. Don't expect a very balanced beginning though. Because having many resources in the beginning means that you can begin with either an infantry squad, or have a big tank right away. Which really does make it a rock paper scissor encounter in the beginning. Contrary to default, where everybody just gets infantry.

But as this is not going to make you change your mind anyway, I will just tell you to play default setting games with random people some more. Eventually you should see that it works perfectly fine 99% of the time.

[salandtwig]

Hartman has said it all so i will just lend my support. I used to have a problem with a fast vehicle 'circle straffing me' - now i always get the AT rifle / Bazooka to support my initial infantry - no problems now.

I personally love the default resources start. It means you get to see all sorts of different types of units - as the resources and tactical decisions change. It is the end of the game that is boring to me - all you see is elites and heavy tanks!!! - and this seems to be what you would like to see from the start!!! - NO thanks.

[DemonicSpoon]

So if team 1 holds 2 flags and team 2 holds 3 flags (And keeps them), team 2 will win before 90mins, guaranteed.
The only possible way a 90min match can happen, is that both teams are perfectly even.
Which then would mean that both teams have chosen wrong strategy.

Most of the matches that I've played in, ends around 40-50mins, which makes the new resource system perfect.

The default points are high enough that with just one point advantage it will still take ages to tick down. You need to hold a lot more points to end the game in a reasonable amount of time.


(which only happens if you are blobbing)
what are you talking about? In the beginning you will have exactly one infantry squad and maybe one other unit. That isn't hard to lose, you don't have to "blob". You can at the very least lose enough that he can juts roll over you and cap everything.


don't buy any new ones (a mere 120 for a basic squad),

You still die horribly because he will have more squads + maybe heavy weapons on the field by now while you have...a single basic squad.

It's awhile before you actually have enough troops to seriously contend with him.


If you really think the default resources are so bad, you can always just click high resources. Don't expect a very balanced beginning though. Because having many resources in the beginning means that you can begin with either an infantry squad, or have a big tank right away. Which really does make it a rock paper scissor encounter in the beginning. Contrary to default, where everybody just gets infantry.

No, actually, because a tank without infantry support is essentially useless and will die to ANY sort of AT that you bring in.

Realistically people might bring in a medium tank and some infantry, or some infantry and an AT gun, or some variant. Or, they may bring in some infantry and call in stuff once they see what the other guy brought in.

It's not rock/paper/scissors at all.



Also, did you just test different starting builds out a dozen times to familiarize yourself with it between these posts? Or are we just arguing on assumptions.

I've seen stuff I've talked about all the time. Even in higher resource modes it happens, the only difference is that you can call stuff in after it happens.

[FFA702]

They can still push with infantry and the winner has the exact same massive advantage. An AC can still wipe an AT rifleman if it's careful.


Hum,if its VERY carefull.... I personaly alwas haved win in AT rifle VS AC....