Germany has an advantage

[Spearthrower]

In fact, does anyone in here feel Germany is an easy faction to play? In terms of how easy the factions are to play, this is my list.

1) Germany
2) Soviets
3) Americans
4) Japan
5) UK

Seriously, who in here plays UK/Japan/Americans on a regular basis? Most people play either Soviets and Germany.

Constructive Criticism: Either have some of the tanks for Germany come out later, and increased the rate at which their hulls are DESTROYED, because it seems like they always are repairable, or increase costs. UK needs love period, they are a terrible faction - armed with crappy weapons that require skill to Germany's and soviets play style of just turning your turret and firing at whatever you see. Germany doesn't rely on flanking, all of their tanks can win/or mostly help in front to front tank battles, where as all the other factions aside from Soviets Heavily rely on speed to flank stuff.

Before the Germany fanboys converge on me, you know who they are because they play Germany almost exclusively, hear me out. Germany is easier to play, all we are asking is that the other sides get minor buffs in armament to smalls arms units (Rangers, Commandos, US Assault Infantry, UK Assault Infantry etc.) or that tanks become available slightly faster so they can make an impact faster before the better Germany/Soviet tanks make their appearance.

This game is going to be forgotten, much like COH because the developers are going to listen to the majority of fans who only play one side. The same way Wehrmacht is an overpowered faction now, will be the same way MoW will be a forgotten game when Germany is left the way it is. Why play a faction knowing that it's easier for the other faction to win? Why try to outflank German tanks, and their owners when you know they make little to no effort to attack you and out right charge you superior tanks and small arms units?

Forget realism, balance this game!

[Ford]

Check this out: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties

Germany would have to be pretty powerful to kill all those people. The same logic applies in COH so I don't see the problem.

If you're having trouble playing the game go to http://www.gamereplays.org for some great articles.

[Spearthrower]

That's nice, another Wikipedia historian.

I said, forget realism. This is a troll argument ford, you can bring up all these stats without looking at other factors. Why don't Americans have way more tanks and men? Planes? Etc.

So realism doesn't work anyways. I would rather have an intense and balanced game over a super real one. Maybe other might disagree, that's for another discussion. Here we are talking about BALANCE. If the game will stay like this, Germany sitting on its butt while the other 3 factions work their asses off to flank weapons with skill, count me out.

[Ulrek]

Forget realism, balance this game!

this may just be my reaction if that happens.. " :cry: "

the germans have their upsides yes...

but than again i'll happily take the US over the Reds myself..

i myself hate the germans for the way they have their units set up..

i favor lighter units that don't cost a whole lot mostly...

and while the germans do have some good points in that area as well..

for me i just like to use what army i like.. not really about winning, not to mention it gets boring as heck playing the germans as the team mates you get like to spam heavy tanks and long range guns like hummels etc.

and while that does not speak in favor of the before mentioned faction...

in real life they -did- take on the world pretty much so.. meh..

either way.. being upset over it really doesnt help in my mind.. so if i get shelled by king tigers and hummels all the time well... :huh:

i'll just wait till they think they've won and drive that tiger over to the other side of the map and kill it with a AT grenade from a SMGer hiding in a blast hole.. :twisted:

*edit* if you don't like the game than don't play it...

this game is better than most ones for its higher level of realism...

if you want a less realistic game than i'd go over to CoH, only played it for a while but it seemed to be more balenced.

[Spearthrower]

It's good that you like the way the units are set up, you like the historical feel and what not. The problem is that this game will never be competitive or the ladder system (automatch) will be a joke because people will understand, you picked Germany/Russia, you probably had an easier time climbing that ladder than say the UK/American or Japanese player.

[TeaSeeOh]

I've made a thread in the past about Germany being more powerful in comparison to the other factions. My opinion hasn't changed. It's not really like you can argue this fact. It's pure mathematics. Compare all the prices, the armor, penetration, and speed values, and you'll plainly see that Germany has an advantage tank-wise. Germany also has unique weapons for their Elite/Assault infantry; MP-44's beat out every gun in the game when it comes to accuracy/rate of fire. Just go into a game and use direct control and compare the size of the reticules at long range. I mean, sure USA/UK get machine guns with their infantry, but that's only 2 in comparison to 4 MP-44's. Panzerfausts are also the most ridiculously effective infantry AT in the game as well, and their elite infantry get them tacked on top of AT grenades.


this game is better than most ones for its higher level of realism...

Which is definitely true, and that makes it one of the cooler RTS games out there. However, this is still a game. There are balancing factors such as unit costs. If you want to talk realism, there were 5 Shermans for every 1 Panther. This is not the case in Men of War. For a game that spouts realism, costs don't reflect that point too well.

You want to quote wikipedia? There were only about 400k MP-44's produced for WW2. There were about 5 MILLION M1 Garands. Yet, it seems, MP-44's outnumber Riflemen in this game.

[Gishank]

Germany out of all the factions has the most advanced equipment, and their standard infantry have better than average training. I personally play UK/Japs quite often alongside Germany, and win almost every game I play against Germans, not because of the units - but because of tactics.

[Windmaker]

Yes, germans are a little bit better than other armies, but I don't agree, that they are easier to play. For me the easiest army to play is USA. Why? Because of prices of units and power of those units - M19, Sherman M4A2(76)W, M36 etc. Those units are so cheap that you can smash enemy. Yesterdays example: I played with my friends against german army - we were usa. We completely destroyed our enemy - no matter what kind of unit they used, Jagdpanther, King Tiger, we destroyed some of those units before our enemy get enough close to our position to be the problem.

That's true that there are problems with balance, but if you just think a little bit during game, there won't be problems with wining. Even Brits are very good, because of also prices of powerful 17pdr tanks - Sherman Firefly, M10 etc.

In my opinion, there is only some problems with balancing some units. For example, USA should have some heavy artillery to avoid playing against Hummels - some kind of 203 mm howitzers would be good. Brits should have more tanks - Comet, different types of light units, Matilda I, Sherman M4A1(76)W - called in UK Sherman IIA. and also more powerful rifles - Enfield rifles were much more powerful then german Kar98. Russia should have cheaper infantry, and weaker Ppsh - it's too powerful. Germans in my opinion should have more limits in heavy tanks - one per game etc. because Elephant, Jagdtiger, King Tiger are too popular in this game - same as IS-2. USA also should get some Super Pershing instead of T29 - which is too weak in this game with it's 105 mm gun.

That' it. Germans don't have any special advantage.

[TeaSeeOh]

You guys missed the point. Germany does have an advantage - Gishank, you even go so far as to admit as much by saying they have advanced equipment. However, advantage doesn't translate into unbeatable. It's great that you can post anecdotal evidence saying you beat Germany plenty of times because of tactics. This just means you outplayed your opponent. Spearthrower and I have played games numerous times together, and we've beaten Germany as UK, Soviets, or USA plenty of times; A pawn can still beat a rook in a game of chess, it doesn't mean the rook didn't have an advantage.

What advantage does mean, is skewed balance in their favor.

[HrcAk47]

Why?

I've been owning German a** with USA from the day i obtained this game. Hell, just about any faction is good for that.

Thing is that people usually have not a darnest clue about using tanks. They buy a Tiger for example and now i need to be scared, eh? Wrong. I'll take a Hellcat, kill the Tiger frontally, and will machinegun a dozen of their soldiers along the way.

Whenever something like that happens, enemy chooses to have a "tactical retreat".

And stop creating such a fable about King Tigers invincibility. Cuz it sucks. I killed 2 in todays game (which i coincidentally played with Soviets, for a change.) One was killed with AT grenades thrown by SMG infantry, other with T34/76 point blank, with assistance from SU100 that knocked its turret out.




Now, there are things which really suck.

That is the balance of US infantry. Again the troops have a ****load of Springfields which weren't even used in Europe, then the M1A1 carbine is weak as hell, and Rangers and Assault squads ought to get a bazooka trooper, if the Germans have Panzerfausts and Russians have Flamethrowers...

[Hartmann]

You guys missed the point. Germany does have an advantage - Gishank, you even go so far as to admit as much by saying they have advanced equipment. However, advantage doesn't translate into unbeatable. It's great that you can post anecdotal evidence saying you beat Germany plenty of times because of tactics. This just means you outplayed your opponent. Spearthrower and I have played games numerous times together, and we've beaten Germany as UK, Soviets, or USA plenty of times; A pawn can still beat a rook in a game of chess, it doesn't mean the rook didn't have an advantage.

What advantage does mean, is skewed balance in their favor.


It's a good post and you should read it.

[FearedxRawr]

Pft, This is pathetic.

I personaly love to be US or the UK even Japan.
But I have heard endless people base there logic of "u grmanyz 2 p0wful!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

Maybe instead of starting a meaningless "Troll" feeding ground. You should work on counter the super might of Germany, and I do mean that sarcasticly.

However, When it ends with major tank spam..I will admit Germany is a pain.
But otherwise, Every country I'v ever played against is a push-over.

~Feared.

[Spearthrower]

So you love to be UK or USA, what does that have to do with the fact that mathematically Germany/Soviets have the game sided to them? All I'm getting is anectodes, and while I may have given one myself, its beside the point that Germany has the play style of "Come and attack my better armored and superior tank" to the playstyle that the UK Japanese and USA have of "I have to play with extra effort in order to kill you, I have to plan things out while you just move a tank up with an officer behind it or MP44's in front and you will probably give me a run for my money"

I have to say with much joy that I'm glad some people in the community realize that rangers blow, and at least acknowledged a problem with the infantry match-ups.


u grmanyz 2 p0wful!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

When the hell did I ever use that grammar in my post? Calling my post pathetic? You're calling me a troll? Sounds like a guy who enjoys sitting his tank somewhere while people attack him and his units auto attack everything. That IS the play style of Germany, and they HAVE an advantage in that department.

[TeaSeeOh]

Like I originally said, you guys miss the point entirely. Please read before responding. Anecdotal evidence of your wins/"domination" against Germany means little to disproving facts. Germany assault infantry come equipped with AT grenades AND panzerfausts. Germany has far more efficient tanks for cost, when comparing penetration, cost, and utility.

What bugs me to no end, and this has nothing to do with their tank superiority, are MP-44's. THAT has me calling foul more than anything. They get 4(FOUR) of them out of their 6 Assault Infantry, and they are arguably better than machine guns in my opinion.


They buy a Tiger for example and now i need to be scared, eh? Wrong. I'll take a Hellcat, kill the Tiger frontally, and will machinegun a dozen of their soldiers along the way.

I hope this is hyperbole, because this is a gross exaggeration. The Tiger I has 100mm frontal armour. The Hellcat has, AT MOST, 130mm of penetration at the absolute closest it can fire. Unless your opponent is an absolute pushover, this doesn't happen ever.

Regardless, this just goes to show, that Germany's tanks favor a campy playstyle. They sit back, while you have to find ways to flank, ambush, and micro your way around those giant fortresses they can just effortlessly plop down.


That is the balance of US infantry. Again the troops have a ****load of Springfields which weren't even used in Europe, then the M1A1 carbine is weak as hell, and Rangers and Assault squads ought to get a bazooka trooper, if the Germans have Panzerfausts and Russians have Flamethrowers...

This is more like it. UK/US Assault/Elite infantry should get unique equipment of their own. Like 1 troop having a bazooka, or UK troops having rifle-grenades(basically grenades that can be shot further/explode on impact). This would largely help to level the field and make it an overall more diverse game.

Again, they're not so overpowered they're unstoppable. It's just an annoyance that they have such an advantage.

[Kinsbutt]

I hope this is hyperbole, because this is a gross exaggeration. The Tiger I has 100mm frontal armour. The Hellcat has, AT MOST, 130mm of penetration at the absolute closest it can fire. Unless your opponent is an absolute pushover, this doesn't happen ever.

This is more like it. UK/US Assault/Elite infantry should get unique equipment of their own. Like 1 troop having a bazooka, or UK troops having rifle-grenades(basically grenades that can be shot further/explode on impact). This would largely help to level the field and make it an overall more diverse game.


Tiger I has a respectably large weakspot on the lowest section of the frontal armor that can be penetrated with much less. Furthermore, this tends to go through and hit the ammo (with enough penetration - usually only hull destroyed with barely penetrated), making it blow up.

http://img682.imageshack.us/img682/4303/tigeriausfe.th.jpg (http://img682.imageshack.us/i/tigeriausfe.jpg/)

American and UK Assault Infantry should only get special stuff if they remove the body armor and the main weapon from that guy. Example: Stormtroopers have no body armor, MP41 on Panzerfaust guys. Russian flamethrower has no body armor (I think?). Bazooka shouldn't have a main weapon or armor, rifle nades should (obviously) have bolt action rifles and no armor.

[Spearthrower]

that gigantic front plate is the weak spot? Really? That huge front spot is not the tigers weakness. I'll wait for the tiger.........strawman, almost got me there. I almost forgot that we were focusing on an exaggeration on someones behalf - lets focus on the insanely powerful heavy tanks with some of the strongest guns in the game, the capability to deal with all threats in No Refund games (I am aware that other modes play differently, and is probably a contributing factor to people disagreeing/agreeing)

Lets focus on the play style that requires the player to mainly sit back and await a flank, while the other side pours micro into dropping smoke/ moving multiple tanks.

Soviet infantry with the flamer does get body Armour, MP44 troops do get body Armour.

So point moot.

Regardless I wouldn't mind if the special troops didn't get Armour I would be willing to compromise on that, and if unique weapons were actually added instead of commandos getting guns that belong to another faction (thompsons) or the weak carbine (which I know was weak in real life) being given to rangers. Falls get FG42 which are awesome guns and panzer fausts. Rangers?

Armour is a whole other issue. Play style and strategy is a whole other issue.

[HrcAk47]

Oh believe me, Hellcat does far more pain that you believe.

Ever thought of it this way?

You're playing the Germans and finally you got the Tiger. Last thing you'd expect is someone going head on with a Hellcat that bears a mere 19 mm of armor up front.

Below 70 m range, Tiger is as good as dead. Yet it can kill me at 150 m, max range, easy. Even beyond that.

So what do i do? I send a wave of infantry that will have to pay the cost, and the enemy will have to switch to HE shell. While emptying HE on my infantrymen, i can go into flank speed and ram 2 shots into its front armor before he gets to know wtf is going on. Even if that fails, i'll have another lurking at its flank because it's so goddamn cheap.

M36 Sluggers are such an overkill. Pointless to say anything.

Want to prove me wrong? Fine, contact me on PM, we'll have a game, and you get to be the Germans.

[Hartmann]

You're still missing the point about anecdotal evidence. Nobody is denying that Hellcats and Sluggers can take out a Tiger or a Kingtiger, nobody is denying that America can win from Germany. The point being made is that with equally skilled players Germany has an advantage.

For instance, you aren't suggesting that a skilled Germany player can't pull exactly the same infantry/tank 1-2 combo on your Slugger right?


I'm not picking sides in this discussion here, I'm just pointing out the glaring flaws in your argumentation.

[Kinsbutt]

that gigantic front plate is the weak spot? Really? That huge front spot is not the tigers weakness. I'll wait for the tiger.........strawman, almost got me there. I almost forgot that we were focusing on an exaggeration on someones behalf - lets focus on the insanely powerful heavy tanks with some of the strongest guns in the game, the capability to deal with all threats in No Refund games (I am aware that other modes play differently, and is probably a contributing factor to people disagreeing/agreeing)

Lets focus on the play style that requires the player to mainly sit back and await a flank, while the other side pours micro into dropping smoke/ moving multiple tanks.

Soviet infantry with the flamer does get body Armour, MP44 troops do get body Armour.

So point moot.

Regardless I wouldn't mind if the special troops didn't get Armour I would be willing to compromise on that, and if unique weapons were actually added instead of commandos getting guns that belong to another faction (thompsons) or the weak carbine (which I know was weak in real life) being given to rangers. Falls get FG42 which are awesome guns and panzer fausts. Rangers?

You misread my post. The guys with the p-fausts do not get body armor. I was unsure of the flamer, but even so, you'll probably make him explode before you kill him if he does indeed have body armor.

And yes, that is the weak spot on the Tiger's front. Test it.

Also, I believe Germany's main weakness lies in the fact they really don't have a powerful mid-game tank. Sure, they have SPGs like the Jagdpanzer, but these are SPGs and not tanks. Panzer IV H has some of the worst turret armor in the game, which doesn't really allow you to use it for an MBT, so you either have to wait for the Tiger I or the Panther to really have an effective infantry support tank after the game evolves to medium-heavy tanks.

I don't disagree that Germany has somewhat of an advantage - but you're exaggerating. Yes, Panzerfausts are amazing. Yes, MP44s are great. Past the Panzer IV, their tanks are fortresses. But you're forgetting that USA has a relatively inexpensive Jumbo with better armor than the Pershing, .50 caliber MGs on many of their vehicles, superior riflemen, the best anti-light vehicle and -infantry early game (M19), highly mobile and highly resilient rocket artillery, turreted, mobile tank destroyers - the list goes on and on. You're cherry picking stuff that Germany has at it's advantage, yet you're completely ignoring what gives USA such a strong early game and infantry counter.

[jimopl]

no he means the slugger isnt that good for the price, and he's right the hellcat is so muck better its like 30 points and can frontally kill a tiger which cost a whole lot more that that. germany and USSR would have a harder time with this seeing as though their tank destroyers dont have turrets which means you just have to hit the tracks and its dead, as the USSR i guess you could use the t-34/85 but if these players are good enough to do this and are equal the otherside should have cannons or at guys, or at least AT mines... equally skilled players are hard to come by becasue one is always going to be better then the other right? and what does it matter, none of this is real, if your complaining cause you "always" have to win, play singleplayer, your not needed theres normally at least 50-100 people in the lobby.
USA is extremely strong in early game if you use them "right" but most people just rush thing and use the german tactics of buy a tank and kill everybody with it...

[TeaSeeOh]

This is just getting to be a case of strawman. It doesn't matter if the Hellcat can frontally penetrate a Tiger or not, it doesn't change the fact that Germany holds an advantage. No one denied that Germany's tanks can't be killed, let me reiterate, they aren't unbeatable. The cost comparison, micro, and tactics required to do so is what is the problem. Like Spearthrower said, you have to pour a lot of your efforts into taking out those tanks, while all he effectively had to do, was plop it down and wait for you to show your face due to his higher armour and penetration values. Top this off with MP-44 & Panzerfaust laden men in the bushes, and you're in for an uphill battle.

And this is all for roughly equal costs. 20 points for Assault Infantry across the board, and tank costs that are in similar price ranges for what they do.


And yes, that is the weak spot on the Tiger's front. Test it.

No it's not. That front lip is not a weak point, and I did test it just to see.

http://i48.tinypic.com/2ntefyg.jpg

Here you can see, 105 penetration > 100mm of it's frontal armour.

http://i45.tinypic.com/5zilbn.jpg

However, when we go to said "weak" spot, the reticule goes so far as to become yellow. It is easier to hit, without having to worry about a steep slope angle coming into play. I'd hardly consider that a "weak" spot, though.

HrcAk47, just so you know next time you argue balance, the Hellcat has 32mm frontal armour not 19. Though funnily enough, it has such weak side and rear armour, you can easily take it out with an AT Rifle if you were to support your tank by just having a guy sit in the bushes.

[HrcAk47]

no he means the slugger isnt that good for the price, and he's right the hellcat is so muck better its like 30 points and can frontally kill a tiger which cost a whole lot more that that. germany and USSR would have a harder time with this seeing as though their tank destroyers dont have turrets which means you just have to hit the tracks and its dead, as the USSR i guess you could use the t-34/85 but if these players are good enough to do this and are equal the otherside should have cannons or at guys, or at least AT mines... equally skilled players are hard to come by becasue one is always going to be better then the other right? and what does it matter, none of this is real, if your complaining cause you "always" have to win, play singleplayer, your not needed theres normally at least 50-100 people in the lobby.
USA is extremely strong in early game if you use them "right" but most people just rush thing and use the german tactics of buy a tank and kill everybody with it...



Welcome, common sense, this topic missed you.



HrcAk47, just so you know next time you argue balance, the Hellcat has 32mm frontal armour not 19. Though funnily enough, it has such weak side and rear armour, you can easily take it out with an AT Rifle if you were to support your tank by just having a guy sit in the bushes.

Really, does it matter? And won't i pummel it to pieces after checking out my assault route with my support Scotts? And won't i scout out my assault route with an officer or a sniper before that? And isn't the AT rifleman positioned there as anecdotal as my kills?


So. With different nations you play differently else you fail. I let the Germans take control of the early game since they have effective raiding armored cars and light tanks, but give them no room to breathe in mid game. That's why they beg for credits to buy as much as a Panther, and forget about Kingtigers.

If i was German, i'd throw all forces to fortify as much as it is possible in preparation of deploying the subsequent heavies. Mind me saying, but why are you guys so butthurt about getting owned by a Kingtiger? It's your inefficiency that allowed them to buy it, deploy it, and ruin your battle formations. I see no reason to invent another superheavy failproof vehicle like T29 (which i bought on a single occasion just to check the interesting dual 50 cals) armed with a railgun in order to make you feel less butthurt.

And go read history. Germany had to develop tank pwning stuff due to the defensive late war tactics. It was up to Soviets, Americans and Brits to be on the offensive, and their vehicle perfectly fit that role, like the German vehicles perfectly fit theirs.

And mind me recommend a balanced game to your likings? It's called FoW. :beer2: You can kill Panthers head on with T34/85, use plain Shermans against Tigers, etc...

[Zeke Wolff]

And mind me recommend a balanced game to your likings? It's called FoW. :beer2: You can kill Panthers head on with T34/85, use plain Shermans against Tigers, etc...

Please don´t remind me... I´ve lost Tiger I´s from 37mm AP rounds firing at it´s frontal armor... those 37mm rounds were horrific... [shudder]...

But basically, what HrcAk47 is saying is the truth, if you are playing the US/UK and to a lesser degree, the Russians, the same way you play when you play as Germans, you´ll lose. To be successfull against the later German heavies, you will need to either sacrifice some cheap tank and flank them with another cheap tank whilst they are busy having fun shooting down your other tanks. I´ve taken out Jagdtigers, King Tigers, etc with the 76mm armed M4A2 Sherman with no problem at all. As long as you flank them, it is easy to knock them out.

MoW isnt CoH, nor is it Blitzkrieg or any other similar RTS game. MoW is a unique kind of RTS game, where you must learn how to use each vehicle properly.

When playing as US, it is better to buy one, two or three cheap tanks, like a Sherman M4A1, and let them keep the enemy busy, whilst you flank them with a M4A2 76mm. The price for these cheap tanks will cost you some points, but it will cost the German side a lot more to lose a Jagdtiger or whatever.

Personally I rarely use anything larger than a Panther when playing as the Germans and my most commonly used "tank" is the Jagdpanzer IV. You really don´t need a King Tiger - all it will do is to make you lose the battle when it is knocked out. I´ve played several battles where my team mates has bought King Tigers ASAP, and when they start to lose them, we lose the battle since the enemy side then earns a lot more points than we do earn when we happen to knock out a Sherman etc. About 95% of all gamers in MoW has a tendency to go for the heavies no matter what side they play, but basically, if you play the game right, any medium tank will not only cost you less, but will also do the job, even if it does take a bit more of patience and time, rather than just go up frontally at an enemy and knock them out, and then, five seconds later, have your heavy tank being knocked out by a single infantry guy with a anti-tank hand grenade...

As US I prefer to use the Sherman M4A2 76mm or the Hellcat. As UK the Achilles or Sherman Firefly. Cromwell is too easily knocked out... I only very rarely play as USSR and I haven´t found a favorite vehicle for them yet... and I never play as the Japs since you only see prototypes in those kind of games, and I do loath prototypes... :realbig:

~Zeke.

[Hartmann]

Ok, so let's see what is established so far.

Germany has better tanks, allies can take them out but need to improvise, can't just go head on. Flanking is a must while playing allies, while it is not necessary most of the time with Germany.

Flanking takes more skill then simply standing still and shooting at everything that moves. Again flanking is a prerequisite if you're playing allies.

So that means that allies requires a higher level of skill to play then Germany. which thus implies that Germany has an advantage, confirming the OP's suspicions and ending this pointless argument.

[SS-Kommando]

Based on my experience Germany is, without the shadow of a doubt, stronger than at least the USA and UK (I have not played against or as the Japs more than a few games, so I can't really comment them). However, I think that the Russians are roughly equals, because of their heavily armored self-propelled artillery, that make good tank destroyers aswell. In some of the games I have played my panzers have been shelled into submission by ISU-152s, and I have done the same to German players aswell as the Russians. Overall, I think that Germany and Russia are evenly matched.

I think that the best solution to make the Americans and Brits more on par with the Germans would be to simply increase the cost of heavy tanks in general. That's what I have done in my mod, and while heavy tanks are still well-worth investing in, they are not nearly as numerous on the battlefield as they are originally.

[Spearthrower]

Really, does it matter? And won't i pummel it to pieces after checking out my assault route with my support Scotts? And won't i scout out my assault route with an officer or a sniper before that? And isn't the AT rifleman positioned there as anecdotal as my kills?
You need to seriously re-read the post he mentioned. He's saying an AT Rifleman can Kill the tank you mentioned. An AT rifle-man in a bush. Thats how weak the armour is. It's not an annectode, grab a dictionary and find out what an anectode is. It's plain facts backed up by stats in the game. The oh so powerful tiger killer (Hellcat is a good tank no lie) can be bought to it's knees by a handheld weapon thats not a bozooka, or a man on a suicide mission trying to throw a AT nade at its engine.


And go read history. Germany had to develop tank pwning stuff due to the defensive late war tactics. It was up to Soviets, Americans and Brits to be on the offensive, and their vehicle perfectly fit that role, like the German vehicles perfectly fit theirs.
And it's this mentality that kills the game. It's a camp fest for the German player, who at thier whim can decide to push foward - take multiple shots from tanks and back off if the situation isnt favorable. The UK/USA/Japanese player moves foward and dies Instantly unless they are lucky or their tank just plainly outclasses the other tank. No need to scout ahead for the german player, but if they do, its that much worse for the UK/USA/Japanese player.

I fail to understand the logic, its like you are saying "It's OK that I have to put less effort into my gameplay because not only does history back it up, but I'm so good annectode annectode annectode."

[Dingdong]

American and UK Assault Infantry should only get special stuff if they remove the body armor and the main weapon from that guy. Example: Stormtroopers have no body armor,
False, Stormtroopers all have body armor.



MP41 on Panzerfaust guys.
So ? There's 2 of them, the other 4 have STG's AND body armor while equivalent 20 point infantry isn't even close, even the Russian infantry is meh, its 4 SMG's that are on par with the PPSH, 1 MG and 1 Flamethrower, nothing special the flamethrower is about the only thing that's good but it doesn't make up for the lack of panzerfausts and STG's.



Russian flamethrower has no body armor (I think?).
Get your facts straight.



Bazooka shouldn't have a main weapon or armor, rifle nades should (obviously) have bolt action rifles and no armor.
All assault infantry gets body armor.

[jimopl]

ok lets get this straight if you think germany has an advantage go make a mod where it doesnt or play a differnent game, every nation has its own type of advantage and im tired of this constat bickering between us, so keep it to your self....jeesz :wilting: why cant people just get along....

[Spearthrower]

Keep it to myself? Make a mod? This is a great game that needs a little tweak here and there to make it perfect. It's a game I can play for the next the 2-3 years, all thats needed is for UK/USA troops to be a little on-par with the soviet/German troops and for something to be done about the obvious superiority of the German tanks which translates into one player putting forth more effort than the other to win a match.

[FFA702]

The game is fine now,if you think german are overpowered,go play it and leave the hoter faction alone.

[Spearthrower]

What type of mentality is that? just leave it how it is? No I refuse to play an easier faction, this game is at the cusp of perfection - why do you guys not want to ask DMS to make a couple of fixes that will result in closer/tenser games? Games where the match could go either way because two varied and distinct factions are playing their hardest to win.

It's not like I'm asking for any nerfs - I'm just asking DMS to take a look at the German/Soviet play style when compared to the more demanding UK/Japanese/USA games. (I know of Japans insanely good artillery). Whats Japans answer to Germany?

Ignoring the problem will just make this another forgotten game plagued by people who mainly play one side (which is fine, if people like Germany/Soviets - it's ok - but at least make it fair for the other factions Exhausting themselves trying to attack fortresses)

[TeaSeeOh]

Spearthrower is right. The answer to this isn't to make a mod, stop playing, or to play the side with said advantage. The answer is the balance team does their job, and DMS be good game developers by listening to the community. All that's really needed, is the other factions getting boosts/tweaks in some areas and(aside from the questionable AI) this game is perfect.

HrcAk47, just stop posting your experiences. Okay, we get it, you "pwnzor" Germany. Spearthrower and I win against Germany too. Shall I tell you the tale of the trackless Sherman of many ages ago on a snowy night that had me gripping my hot chocolate oh so tight? It's also not necessary to tell me build orders, advantages/disadvantages of the different factions, how to use units, or how to not use units. We get it, we know how to play. This doesn't change the fact that Germany has you fighting an uphill battle, where you have to exhaust yourself and outmicro your opponent to win. What else is there to argue?

[SS-Kommando]

Although I do think that making a mod is a good solution if you are dissatisfied with the original game, I do agree with Spearthrower that he should get to come with constructive criticism. Now I myself am a fan of realism, so I disagree with him on letting realism suffer due to balance, as I also think both can co-exist, but I think that for a game to get good, constructive criticism is a must (yes, even if it doesn't happen to agree with my vision of the game).

[sgt_steiner]

ss-Kommando's post above has gave me an idea (its probably been mentioned before but ive missed it)

just as we have settings like easy, medium, and hard in single player why not for have for multiplayer a "realistic" setting and a "balanced" setting, im no programmer/developer but could this not be acomplished by simply having 2 sets of settings?
in the realistic one a soldier gets shot and thats him out! none of the "magic medic kits" you could even make it so that soldiers had parts that could be disabled like the armour, i.e. if he is shot in leg hes not going anywhere fast, he can basicly just shoot from the position hes shot at! or if hes shot in the head, well lets face facts hes then a dead body sandbag!!!

i could go on with lots more examples but i think theres enough there to give everyone the idea!!!

and on the subject of germany having an advantage,
in my opinion germany and russia are evenly matched, and to be honest theres not anything that can really be done with the other countrys without adding fantasy stuff that wasnt actualy in the war!
because most (not all, some was exellant) of the equipment the allies had was CRAP compared to russia and the germans because they had been fighting a war on land for 3-4 years and were able to test theyre ideas and equipment in the real theatre of war, and not just on firing ranges and the like!!!

[SS-Kommando]

Steiner,

Much of what you suggested is possible through modifying the "type of troops". It is possible to have infantry with lower hp & without bandages in a separate squads.set and only historical vehicles in a separate vehicles.set.

As for the Allies having crap equipment in the actual war, that's not true. In the actual war the Sherman was an excellent tank, that many argue was better than the T-34 and Panzer IV, although this can't be very well illustrated in the game because of the lack of the concept of operational mobility.

[sgt_steiner]

as i said in brackets in my post buddy, "some was exellant equipment" , but do you think my suggestion would be a good idea to have in the actual game (next version not an add on or update to this) as an option and not a mod?

[Hartmann]

Most of you probably already know this, but the new Assault Squad expansion is aiming to set this all straight. Vanilla balance and gameplay is a godawful mess, that will never be fixed in a patch. Simply because it requires a complete overhaul of the game.

If you genuinely care about MoW, and want to help make sure the next game is perfectly balanced, you should help out by signing up for testing. Don't forget it's only 5 euros right now.

[jimopl]

Keep it to myself? Make a mod? This is a great game that needs a little tweak here and there to make it perfect. It's a game I can play for the next the 2-3 years, all thats needed is for UK/USA troops to be a little on-par with the soviet/German troops and for something to be done about the obvious superiority of the German tanks which translates into one player putting forth more effort than the other to win a match.
the main reason the allies took out german tanks was the air support, that seememed to destroy a lot of there stuff, which atm cant be implemented into MOW very well

[Spearthrower]

Most of you probably already know this, but the new Assault Squad expansion is aiming to set this all straight. Vanilla balance and gameplay is a godawful mess, that will never be fixed in a patch. Simply because it requires a complete overhaul of the game.

If you genuinely care about MoW, and want to help make sure the next game is perfectly balanced, you should help out by signing up for testing. Don't forget it's only 5 euros right now. I don't like this response but at the same time I like this response. While it sucks alot that they wont be doing anything to balance the game out, it feels good to know there are guys on the beta that at least are aiming to make the game as balanced as possible. Keep up with the hard work, and thanks.

[FFA702]

I think its good to have a simple play style faction (germany) in game.It alow new player to get the basic of multi player consept and still have a chance of wining.
I never play russian on a Ger VS Rus match, but i hate beeing Ger vs Usa, Uk, etc , simply because the german team will be full of new player.I love the game as it is,yes the garman as an advantage , like any hoter factions.If we try to rebalance the game, we will loose the diversity(FoW style way of doing ting).

[guynumber7]

Hopefully there will be an open beta sometime. Id play it.

[pedro0930]

The measurable effectiveness of units closely match its price. If the game is balanced historically, my Sherman would not cost 21, as high as a Panzer 4G. But screw realism, right? Balance the game! So my Sherman now cost 21 points and has its gun nerfed.

If Germany is really so powerful, they wouldn't get a price reduction on Panther while USA has its early tank weakened and late tank made more expensive in the most recent patch.

[Hartmann]

Either that, or Bestway is totally inept at balancing the game.

[pedro0930]

Well, if Germany don't get KT (due to personal belief or whatever), then their heaviest tanks (Panther and Tiger) stand little chance against M26, which is understandable, as Pershing cost slightly more than both.

So the solution for Germany is usually to get the Jagdpanther, which indeed has a good chance of taking down the M26 from safe distance on open ground. If the M26 has any terrain to hide behind, however, the Jagdpanther usually would have to retreat or it will get detracked as M26 quick pop in and out of cover.

Infantry, light vehicle, and cover are completely nullified by a direct controlled M19 acting as a skirmisher.

Really, I don't feel like playing at a disadvantage against Germany as USA.

[FearedxRawr]

So you love to be UK or USA, what does that have to do with the fact that mathematically Germany/Soviets have the game sided to them? All I'm getting is anectodes, and while I may have given one myself, its beside the point that Germany has the play style of "Come and attack my better armored and superior tank" to the playstyle that the UK Japanese and USA have of "I have to play with extra effort in order to kill you, I have to plan things out while you just move a tank up with an officer behind it or MP44's in front and you will probably give me a run for my money"

I have to say with much joy that I'm glad some people in the community realize that rangers blow, and at least acknowledged a problem with the infantry match-ups.


u grmanyz 2 p0wful!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

When the hell did I ever use that grammar in my post? Calling my post pathetic? You're calling me a troll? Sounds like a guy who enjoys sitting his tank somewhere while people attack him and his units auto attack everything. That IS the play style of Germany, and they HAVE an advantage in that department.
Did I say you used grammer like that? No.
Let alone, Ask any of the people I have played against that I do not use tanks to any point.

Now please, Get your facts togather about me and then attempt to argue with me.

[jimopl]

woah guys clean it up, lets prevent a flame war from ocurring here ;) back on topic germany does have an advantage but so does every body else, its just the advantage comes encrypted with the playing style :yes:
EDIT: well also if you guys care so much get the exclusive testing thing, im sure there gonna listen to you and you may even decide to suggest that they can add a realism/balanced option in the game menu's or something like that...

[SS-Kommando]

as i said in brackets in my post buddy, "some was exellant equipment" , but do you think my suggestion would be a good idea to have in the actual game (next version not an add on or update to this) as an option and not a mod?

I for the most part think that as many options as possible is good, but game developers tend to want to add limits, because otherwise some players will get a bad impression if they join a server that plays with unrecommended settings. However, I'd say that's not so much of an issue, as unpopular settings will end up being rarely used (we have a max timelimit of 90 minutes in MoW for instance, yet games are seldom longer than 40min).

[Spearthrower]

For the record I play mainly battlezones, sometimes VP. I play No refund games, I realize that things play very different in with payback, and the mode that allows you to have your points all at once.

On No refund you are given your points in small amounts, and have to spend wisely - Germany getting a Panther or what not is a common thing as the USA/UK/Japanese player doesnt have all the resources to build a bunch of things and flank an enemy. Through out the entire game both players are on equal footing in terms of resources. Every loss is felt, and every death counts in the taking or loss of a point (battle zones or VP)

By no means am I calling anyone out but I have played the mode where you have all your points at once, both against/with very good players and against/with bad players. Sometimes it can be a very aggressive match with both sides pushing on each other non stop. Sometimes it can be a very forgiving game mode as one player swarms infantry and tanks on the field without even thinking about it.

I think its the difference in those game modes that feeds the misconception of "flank your enemy". In no refund if you have a Sherman (Or cromwell, or whatever), he has a P4 - and both sides practically mirror each other. Sure I can get into anecdotes of "Well I'll hit his treads and etc." but if the match continues on this principle, that is each side has roughly the same amount of points and will have the same in terms of units, then Germany with its superior tanks will have an unstoppable late game.

Everything culminates to this; If it is harder for me to destroy an enemy tank, especially when I don't outnumber him (which is going to be the case of two equally matched players), I have to pour way more time and energy into winning, than the German or Soviet player. This on top of the things here and there (MP44's, better tanks, Fausts) all translates into a faction with an advantage over three of the other factions.

[FearedxRawr]

As my good friend Jimpol said.
Lets clean up what we say.

On topic of an advantage. I'll say I dont see any advantage besides the skill of whomever is playing what.
After all, When Jimpol and I play we tend to..Ya know..Slaugher everything. :grandpa:

[jimopl]

yeah it tends to go back and forth....such a waste of good men... :sad2:
lol
this alos happens with other people, the only real advantage is the strategy the player uses

[FearedxRawr]

Exactly.
It is based on how good YOU are.
Not how good your units are.

But in all fairness MoW has alot more ways of doing things.
For example, It is the only game I have ever played that a lone infantryman can destroy a Tiger tank.

But anyway, As Jimpol said, We dont just crush everything..It goes back and fourth for maybe 40 minutes then we crush everything.

[Fritz]

Weeeeell

I'we always played best as a german player, don't know if that's cause i know how to operate a tank, but there is some facts to consider.

the western allies had nothing that could actually come even remotly close to the King Tiger, what the western allies could rely on was fighter-bombers, artillery, or breakdowns (Crew destroying own tank).

the superior firepower of the KWK 71 88mm gun was by far the deadliest around, and that gun could even score a kill on the IS2 at ranges up to 4.5KM, thats like...

"HANS, shadow in horizon....FEUER !!"

now, with the japs....i get smoldered, but i need to learn to combine the heavy artillery with infantry flanking or all out assault, then that can work as well, but as i'm no fan of micro use on keyboard...that won't happend...

---
The best game i'we had in MOW, I had a JagdPanther and played on Forrest map, that one tank hunter in a hull down position, disposed of quite a number of tanks, before getting sabotaged at the end of the game :-)

due to the design of the tank, I could not have don the same if i had the jap tank hunter...it's just to...big and clumsy.

Merry Christmas to you all from Sweden.

[Ulrek]

thing is...

the japanese are best with light and medium tanks and soldiers to fight... anything to heavy and they'll just go poof... main reason i don't like them as your enemy knows it to...

the german tanks are by far the best in the game mostly...

personally i like as i've said the US, unless it gets in to heavy tanks spam.

if don't want tank spam set it for a lower points game and make them use what they can get..

a sherman is really not all that bad of a tank unless you put it up against one of the "big cats of germany" and yes you know what i mean..

try playing front line or battle zones with germany and see if they still rule the fields of war is what i'd say.

[Dingdong]

Actually even a modest Hetzer or StUG can wreck everything in the sherman series from a good distance, anything with at least 75 mm can wreck the hull of a sherman pretty easily, the later shermans might get better weapons but personally I think they're always pretty crap. At least the hell cat has a much lower profile so I prefer using that as my ambush weapon, I usually just use a M4A1 sherman as infantry support or a greyhound to save my money. Later shermans aren't worth it, besides the jumbo.

[jimopl]

yeah the jumbo is amazing, i bought one and 5 squads of inf and completely destroyed the left flank in a mid-late part of the game vs germany

[Ulrek]

Actually even a modest Hetzer or StUG can wreck everything in the sherman series from a good distance, anything with at least 75 mm can wreck the hull of a sherman pretty easily, the later shermans might get better weapons but personally I think they're always pretty crap. At least the hell cat has a much lower profile so I prefer using that as my ambush weapon, I usually just use a M4A1 sherman as infantry support or a greyhound to save my money. Later shermans aren't worth it, besides the jumbo.

thing is... thats medium tanks vs tank -destroyer- see what i mean?

one i said the sherman was a alright tank.. i didn't say a alright tank to go up against a vehicle -made- to kill enemy tanks.

if you use the thing against say.. a normal panzer.. than you'll see that its big gun (which last time i looked was a 75mm also) is fairly nasty just don't get caught out to far from your target.

add that to a anti light vehicle weapon.. (yee old big 50 cal.) they do chew up alot of enemys if you can keep them out of heavy fire...

*Edit* the Jumbo is alright.. but its armor won't stand against a panther or much 75/88mm fire for that matter.

[Birdy]

I agree with you there, the Jumbo is probably their best tank, but that M36 jackson can be pretty deadly (If you don't lose it, then you're toast) I use the stuart/m8 scott as inf support, the .50 on the scott is very effective.

The shermans should be improved a bit, they used to be good cause of their gun, but now they're about the worst medium tank. they should have different variants of them, maybe the first one a good all-around medium tank, the second could have a good gun but lower armour and the third better armour but the gun that the currently have in the update, they could all cost the same, but this way it would make the americans more interesting. (Just name them differently [M4 sherman], [M4A1], [M4A2])

the British need a serious remake, they should get cheaper units (Same with US) then I'm sure it would balance things.

and the jumbo can stand against panther/Tiger fire, I use it as a sponge for enemy fire, then use my tank destroyers to attack the flanks with stuarts/m8s to help out.

[Spearthrower]

Exactly.
It is based on how good YOU are.
Not how good your units are.

But in all fairness MoW has alot more ways of doing things.
For example, It is the only game I have ever played that a lone infantryman can destroy a Tiger tank.

But anyway, As Jimpol said, We dont just crush everything..It goes back and fourth for maybe 40 minutes then we crush everything.

You don't seem to understand the point of this thread, alot of you don't.

There isn't any good moderation in this forum because of the constant off-topic, completely useless posts. Telling me "ITS BASED ON HOW GOOD YOU ARE" doesn't say absolutely anything to me. I keep banging my head against a wall here because after you are repeatedly told you are dragging the thread off topic you continue to do it.

Maybe every now and then you'll beat that German player, but you MISS THE POINT THAT THE ALLIES/JAPANESE HAVE TO FLANK AND PLAN OUT COMPLICATED ATTACKS AND MICROMANAGE MULTIPLE UNITS WHILE GERMANY SITS BACK WITH ITS NICE TANK AND JUST SHOOTS AT WHAT IT SEES. There I did it in all caps and I hope you understand it now. Don't respond with Wikipedia entries, don't respond with stuff you heard one day on the history channel. It doesn't do anything. I already know Germany has superior weapons, I already know if you play well you can beat your opponent, I DON'T WANT TO KNOW how good you are or what your strategy is, or your gripping tales of how you beat a German so easily.

Germany has superior tanks, thats fine - don't show off your knowledge on the tanks. It's understood that their tanks are good no diagrams needed. It's fine they have superior tanks as long as the UK/USA/Japanese have better troops, more troops, something, anything to even it out. That is the topic of discussion, the Germans advantage in the tank department on top of MP44's, and Pfausts, and suggestions on how to fix the problem. If you disagree you can say "Yeah the Americans have the Jumbo, its got great armour and has the capability to change the game mid game in favour of the allies because it has X armour and Y weapons. The X armour can withstand hits from Z tank because that tank only has A penetration on top of being more expensive etc etc." and then we can get into a freaking serious discussion.

I'm still waiting for the counter to the fact that the UK/Japanese/Americans have to flank and micromanage multiple units while Germany does less of that. Is anyone going to counter that claim? So I can pull out a ton of comments that say the same stuff of "Well just flank that tank with a Jumbo backed up by etc etc etc!" THAT is where the true advantage lies with Germany and the Soviet Union. Playstyles.

post edited by ngvede (watch your language)

[Minenfeld!]

It's no coincidence that the heaviest fighting of the war took place on the Eastern front so the German and Soviet units in game are by far the most powerful. The Germans, Soviets, and Americans are the most powerful nations in this game because of how flexible they are. Germany can get away with fielding some riflemen and a tank where other nations would need more equipment.

I also play UK or US most of the time. If you play Germany, no one joins your game because "Germany always wins" or some nonsense like that.

So you're basically complaining about the playstyles? Well son, you've hit on the key differences between the nations here. Stop whining and find a nation that fits how you fight.

Allied tanks cost less, have quicker turret traverse, and reload faster on average. Take advantage of this. German guns are obviously the most powerful in the game and the most accurate. Be aware of that. In a game like this, learning your unit's strengths and weaknesses in paramount. Complaining on a forum about how German tanks can knock yours out at long range or how Panzerfausts are deadly won't get you anywhere just like doing the same in 1944 would get you the response "bad luck" from your buddies. I've waited a long time for any RTS game to come out that would rival the Close Combat series' intricacies and I'm not going to let people whine about "game balance" and ruin it for me.

What the game really needs, rather than whining, is to mirror Close Combat's rarity system. Germany wouldn't seem so amazing if every game didn't end with a King Tiger showing up. How would you feel fighting with mostly Panzer IVs, StuGs, and Panthers? The ubiquitous Jagdpanzers, Jagdpanthers, King Tigers, and Elefants are extremely rare vehicles.

Things like the T-29, Centurion, IS-3, KV-85, IS-1, and pretty much all of Japan's armor shouldn't even be in this game.

The 122mm gun for the Soviets needs to be looked at as well. The King Tiger and IS-2 aren't exactly an uneven match. Impacts from the 122mm round often times shattered the seams between the welds on the King Tiger's armor. The game also doesn't model tanks becoming bogged down in marshy or muddy terrain or throwing a track if it climbs a hill incorrectly--something which large tanks are extremely prone to doing. Ever wonder why armies didn't exclusively equip themselves with King Tigers?

It also needs a reworking of the infantry squads. American infantry should have Garands across the board. All rifle teams should have 1-3 LMGs. No one but the Soviets should be getting body armor. There will be 1-4 Panzerfausts per squad for Germany and only in certain squads at that.

[Hartmann]

Any game that completely forgoes balance is dead in the water right away. You simply can't build a game with factions that are clearly uneven and expect it to have any sort of significant lasting appeal. Like it or not, but even realistic games must be balanced.

[Walderschmidt]

lots of text...

And all I am asking that you improve your playing skills so that instead complaining about how powerful and unstoppable the German tanks are, you stop sending them Shermans to feed on. Okay, I'm joking again, but there's already been a thread similar to this.

I still don't think that the other nations need weapon buffs. I do agree that pricing needs to be changed for units, but that's another matter.

I hope this wall of text wasn't too hard to read and that I wasn't too offensive (I said things in jest).

Regards, Walderschmidt

Edited by Zeke Wolff/Moderator...

[Spearthrower]

It's no coincidence that the heaviest fighting of the war took place on the Eastern front so the German and Soviet units in game are by far the most powerful. The Germans, Soviets, and Americans are the most powerful nations in this game because of how flexible they are. Germany can get away with fielding some riflemen and a tank where other nations would need more equipment.

I also play UK or US most of the time. If you play Germany, no one joins your game because "Germany always wins" or some nonsense like that.

So you're basically complaining about the playstyles? Well son, you've hit on the key differences between the nations here. Stop whining and find a nation that fits how you fight. So you bought up history again, thats cool i guess even though it has nothing to do with this game. The #1 thing people use is "I play anyone but Germany all the time", but really - its nonsense. Most people play Germany all the time and they know it. So now I'm whining, I'm not whining I'm pointing out the Germany has a play style that is easier than the other factions aside front the USSR. Ok whatever, so does Germany have an easier play style? Is their play style not that of having superior tanks and really good firepower in said tanks? Do the allies have to flank these tanks, do they not have to put more effort into killing German tanks? Admit that at least.


Allied tanks cost less, have quicker turret traverse, and reload faster on average. I have to admit that the point of the turrets turning faster seems like a valid point. I have to look that up and I will definitely get back to you on that.


Take advantage of this. German guns are obviously the most powerful in the game and the most accurate. Be aware of that. In a game like this, learning your unit's strengths and weaknesses in paramount.
Lmao you are one special person. It's time to break down this stupid rhetoric of yours.

Germany has Stronger accurate guns and has really good Armour on their tanks. Be aware of that you tell me. I am aware of it minen, your strategies of war are oh so great. I'm on this forums for that exact reason, the advantages that Germany has beat out the advantage that the other factions have by so much. While you sit back with a stug on a hill thats taking repeated shots from the front, you smile and say "man I'm great at this game". Meanwhile the poor whelp on the other team is using infantry/light armour/ heavy armour to try and flank that. He's pouring micro into going on around the tanks with his faster turret speed while you, you?, you just sit back and wait to see what he has in store.


Complaining on a forum about how German tanks can knock yours out at long range or how Panzerfausts are deadly won't get you anywhere just like doing the same in 1944 would get you the response "bad luck" from your buddies. I've waited a long time for any RTS game to come out that would rival the Close Combat series' intricacies and I'm not going to let people whine about "game balance" and ruin it for me So you want me to just "deal with it" deal with the fact that other people are putting less micro into playing? i wonder how many games I'll play if I host mirror matches of germany vs germany. Most people won't want to join such games. if you don't like my complaining Minen then by all means don't respond to my posts, or in my threads. A forum for a game is here for that and many other reasons. You don't like the threads minen you're free to go to the many other sections.


I've waited a long time for any RTS game to come out that would rival the Close Combat series' intricacies and I'm not going to let people whine about "game balance" What you're saying here is "I don't want game balance, I like my opponents playing harder than me just fine when i play Germany."


just like doing the same in 1944 would get you the response "bad luck" from your buddies.
The gold nugget of your post comes from here. Minen you werent even alive in 1944, in fact, why the hell would you waste time even posting such a comment. I'll remember you were a veteran of WW2 driving head first into the allied Sherman brigades, shell bouncing off your tiger. "Bad luck" my buddies would say. Lmao that's gold.


What the game really needs, rather than whining, is to mirror Close Combat's rarity system. Germany wouldn't seem so amazing if every game didn't end with a King Tiger showing up. How would you feel fighting with mostly Panzer IVs, StuGs, and Panthers? The ubiquitous Jagdpanzers, Jagdpanthers, King Tigers, and Elefants are extremely rare vehicles.

Things like the T-29, Centurion, IS-3, KV-85, IS-1, and pretty much all of Japan's armor shouldn't even be in this game.

The 122mm gun for the Soviets needs to be looked at as well. The King Tiger and IS-2 aren't exactly an uneven match. Impacts from the 122mm round often times shattered the seams between the welds on the King Tiger's armor. The game also doesn't model tanks becoming bogged down in marshy or muddy terrain or throwing a track if it climbs a hill incorrectly--something which large tanks are extremely prone to doing. Ever wonder why armies didn't exclusively equip themselves with King Tigers?

It also needs a reworking of the infantry squads. American infantry should have Garands across the board. All rifle teams should have 1-3 LMGs. No one but the Soviets should be getting body armor. There will be 1-4 Panzerfausts per squad for Germany and only in certain squads at that. What this forum needs, rather than German fan boys who want realism, but don't factor EVERYTHING like planes etc, is people who are looking to have Game balance. Thank you for your knowledge in tanks minen, its contributes so much to this thread.

Once again, I won't let up either, no matter how many times I'm derailed - can anyone explain why the superior Play style of Germany is an accepted fact and why no one wants to do anything about it? Seems like that all I'm getting " Germany has superior weapons, (History lessons from tank engineers and war verterans),its ok if they have a easier play style it helps noobs out, and one time I beat a german player by..."

[Spearthrower]

Because it's simply fun to do so. A little chalenge never hurt nobdoy did it? You said it youself on the fourth page of this thread that you refuse to play the easier faction. Wouldn't that mean or imply you enjoy being the underdog?

So your opponent chose the easier faction; so what? Maybe the host put the settings a certain way, and your opponent simply likes Germany more. Maybe he simply stinks at MoW and needs a crutch?Fine then Lets buff USSR and Uk and make Germany the underdog. NO THATS THE LAST THING ANYONE WANTS.


And all I am asking that you improve your playing skills so that instead complaining about how powerful and unstoppable the German tanks are, you stop sending them Shermans to feed on. Okay, I'm joking again, but there's already been a thread similar to this. You're not joking, you're serious but its ok. You insult me and say "Hehe just kidding." You can make fun of my skill all you want but you have already acknowledged that Germany has a Easier play style. Lets change that and make the game a fun balanced where both sides play hard to win.

[Ulrek]

i'm thinking this might slide in to flame war city..


anyway i personally are half a sleep if i'm playing a 4v4 with germany..

my team mates mostly seem to sit on their butts and shell whatever they can find.. which leaves little for a tank guard like me to do...

i like the russians and US the best with the britsh second... the japanese... not so much but i will in a lower points game.

anyway.. i would suggest however that this topic be kept friendly....

don't need any of this.. :rtfm: from the mods.

*edit* its already quite fun to play...

[Walderschmidt]

NO THATS THE LAST THING ANYONE WANTS.

I didn't mean make Germany the underdog. It's just that you said it was easier to play Germany because of it's certain advantages while also saying that refuse to play the easier faction. Obviously my arguments or arguing were/was too confusing and rantlike.


You're not joking, you're serious but its ok. You insult me and say "Hehe just kidding." You can make fun of my skill all you want but you have already acknowledged that Germany has a Easier play style. Lets change that and make the game a fun balanced where both sides play hard to win.

I'm wasn't being serious about making fun of your skill. Outside of this thread I've never seen, spoken to, or ever played a game with you. Therefore I have no idea how good (or how bad :P) you are at this game.

I'm no expert either, and I don't profess to be. But I'm not going to bend over backwards to make my jesting more clear for what it is. It is simply how I argue.

Anyway, I'm not here to start a fight, I just like a good argument.

Regards, Walderschmidt

Edit: And no, I still don't think Germany has an easier playstyle. I think the America does.

[Spearthrower]

Edit: And no, I still don't think Germany has an easier playstyle. I think the America does.

Please,explain why.

[Ulrek]

i've a feeling this topic is about... oh.. yay far.. *holds up to tightly pinched fingers* ..from being locked.. could just be me..

but i'd ask you both to cool down and don't flame war.. if you want to debate this take it to PMs and not a public post if you would..

if you wish to make a simple point to the public than thats fine.. but this seems to be aimed at each other here..

so please if you wish to fight over this i'd suggest and ask you take it to PMs or cool it down just a bit.


sorry if i'm out of line asking this as i'm not a in anyway in a place of power here to tell you what to do but this seems to just be getting out of hand a bit perhaps? :huh:

as for two cents about this..

really i don't think any amount of argument about how unbalenced the game is will fix that.. its up to the makers of the game.

coming from the guy who likes to send in a soldier for the odd melee kill... germany is boring.. thats about all i've got left on the matter... happy debating and holidays.

[pedro0930]

Edit: And no, I still don't think Germany has an easier playstyle. I think the America does.

Please,explain why.


Germany doesn't have M19.

[Spearthrower]

USA/UK/Japanese don't have a playstyle that relies purely on flanking. Which translates into a harder time for the player using them.

The other factions don't have fausts, MP44's, The general consensus that thier weapons are insanely good and accurate.

By the way, I'm assuming you're playing the mode where you start off with all your points and spend until you run out?

We can get into little things, but why do that. All that will turn this thread into is a war of tit for tat. Plain and simple, most have agreed with what I've said about Germany (the other factions have to flank Germany more than Germany has to flank them, Germany has superior weapons, etc) and if they don't have they post redundant things like the history of war, or what I should do in X situation.

//Edited by Zeke Wolff/Moderator.

[Walderschmidt]

Germany doesn't have M19.
USA/UK/Japanese don't have a playstyle that relies purely on flanking. Which translates into a harder time for the player using them.

We can get into little things, but why do that. All that will turn this thread into is a war of tit for tat. Plain and simple, most have agreed with what I've said about Germany (the other factions have to flank Germany more than Germany has to flank them, Germany has superior weapons, etc) and if they don't have they post redundant things like the history of war, or what I should do in X situation.

How does not having a playstyle make it harder for the player? Based on what you said, that should make it easier right?

To answer your request that I explain myself:

I find that Americans have an easier playstyle because of all the inner synergy. I'm talking about things like how the command vehicle has a bazooka and 5 rounds in its inventory. The Jumbo Sherman has more frontal armor than a Tiger 1 (meat shield) The M19 is able to bring most medium tanks to their knees. it just all seems to work well together, in my opinion.

Anway, Merry Christmas everyone!

[pedro0930]

I actually mostly play no refund, since this is the mode where the M19 is the strongest because you can get it as soon as you can afford it, instead of having to wait for a 5 minute timer.

How about this, you name a few match up of units that does not include the King Tiger where Allies would HAVE to flank in order to destroy the German units (Please also be reasonable and not give out match like Panther vs M4A1)? Also note all turretless vehicle obviously trades away versatility for armor and gun, which would make them look good on paper, but less desirable in-game.

I will give you the M4A1(21) vs Panzer IV G(21) as an example, but at the same time where these units are active, the USA also happens to have the M5 AT gun(13), which has penetration power to penetrate Panzer IV G at maximum distance. On the other hand, both Panzer 4G and pak40 needs to get to around 90-100 range to penetrate M4A1 unless hitting the weak spot (which rarely occurs at such distance). Does USA need to flank? Not really, just stay at a distance a bomb all the German infantry away with HE while the Panzer 4 sits helplessly at the distance (also firing HE shells since it has nothing better to do), fearing ambushing AT gun.

[ngvede]

This thread is on the brink of full scale flame war. Few posts had to be edited and it seems that the whole thing is going nowhere.

All involved should calm down and try to discuss differences in civilised manner...

If you guys can't do that this thread will be closed.

//ngvede

[TeaSeeOh]

Also note all turretless vehicle obviously trades away versatility for armor and gun, which would make them look good on paper, but less desirable in-game.

Sorry, but this just can't fly with me. You just can't discount the Hetzer, StuG Jagdpanzer, and Jagdpanther just because they don't have a turret. Those tanks are actually great examples of tanks that are virtually unkillable from the front(when they arrive on the field), requiring you to pour time and micro to flank and ambush them. And all it takes is one random guy in the bushes to spot you to ruin your attempt. Nashorn is another "tank" that is just another nail in the coffin for any other faction. This beast has ridiculous penetration, being able to kill almost any tank any faction can field frontally. Don't try and tell me it has weak armour, I know this, and so does the Hellcat, Achilles, etc.

The Panzer series that is included in Men of War are the only tanks that I'm sure no one would have a problem with. Because they are reasonably priced, and aren't completely untouchable even with massive support on the German side. On cost basis, Panzers are the only things I'd consider equal and fair.

Regardless of the tank superiority, which only shows late game, my big problem with Germany is their superior infantry. Panzerfausts, MP44s, FG42s, and the MG42. US may have the Jumbo(which only really can be used as a damage sponge while you flank with a TD, and your opponent should know this), but the other faction's Assault/Elite infantry can't even touch German loadouts.


Does USA need to flank? Not really, just stay at a distance a bomb all the German infantry away with HE while the Panzer 4 sits helplessly at the distance (also firing HE shells since it has nothing better to do), fearing ambushing AT gun.

Does Germany need to flank? Not really, just stay at a distance and bomb all the USA/UK infantry away with HE shells while the Sherman sits helplessly at the distance (also firing HE shells since it has nothing better to do), fearing ambushing AT gun/Panzerfaust equipped infantry.

[pedro0930]

Unkillable from the front at the time of appearance, sure, but once they are detracked, they are worthless.
Send up your Panzer 4G up against that SU85 frontally and see what would happen, or Tiger against that SU100 While it is perhaps unfair to not count those vehicles, their vulnerability is very well known and very often exploited.

I've never seen a nashorn, ever, as a vehicle that nails any coffin. The performace for this tank destroyer is usually 1 legacy level tank bought during the early phase of the game then promptly taken out by another tank with 150 range.

Germany don't need to flank, it just needs to sit back and fire away with HE shells, well, great then! The match up is balanced. Would it be better if the M4A1 gun returns to 1.1.3 stats, where it could kill P4 from 110 with barely any way to fight back? No, it was very unbalanced when USA was running rampant with almost disposable cheap level tank everywhere 5 minutes into the game where even Panzer 4H, a 30 points tank can't take out.

[Dingdong]

thing is... thats medium tanks vs tank -destroyer- see what i mean?
Nope, American tank destroyers fall the same way - to very modest German armor. I would say that the Pz-IV is the better tank, it has side skirts thus giving it mobility the sherman can't compete against and it can wreck tanks far more costly than it, its great mobility and excellent protection from rocket launchers means that it can approach positions no other tank can thus giving it an edge, its cannon can deal with any US tank under a Jumbo/Pershing.



one i said the sherman was a alright tank.. i didn't say a alright tank to go up against a vehicle -made- to kill enemy tanks.

The issue is that the Sherman really isn't good against vehicles really, even its later forms are so absurdly tall that if you miss your tank is done for. The open top design is also no good since it isn't rare that a shell or grenade lands there.



if you use the thing against say.. a normal panzer.. than you'll see that its big gun (which last time i looked was a 75mm also) is fairly nasty just don't get caught out to far from your target.

For how cheap it is its devastatingly efficient at destroying the weak hull of the sherman class tanks.





*Edit* the Jumbo is alright.. but its armor won't stand against a panther or much 75/88mm fire for that matter.
Lol, it will stand up to a panther all right, it will stand up to a King Tiger even given some range. It's armor is very thick but its cannon is no good , it's probably the only sherman tank that can use a .50 cal with impunity.

[TeaSeeOh]

Unkillable from the front at the time of appearance, sure, but once they are detracked, they are worthless.
Send up your Panzer 4G up against that SU85 frontally and see what would happen, or Tiger against that SU100 While it is perhaps unfair to not count those vehicles, their vulnerability is very well known and very often exploited.


I'm at a complete loss here. You discount non-turreted German vehicles, citing their lack of versatility, yet you go on to compare a TURRETED Panzer 4 vs. the SU85. You also mention the Tiger I vs. the SU100. Again, a turreted tank vs. those same tanks that are "worthless," as you say, once detracked.


No, it was very unbalanced when USA was running rampant with almost disposable cheap level tank everywhere 5 minutes into the game where even Panzer 4H, a 30 points tank can't take out.

The Sherman only had 95 penetration at closest range vs. the Panzer4H's 80 hull armour. Compare to the Sherman's 51(IIRC) armour(maybe around ~64 with the slope) vs. the Panzer4H's 121 penetration. You're grossly exaggerating.

Also, to further my complaint of Germany having more of an advantage infantry wise, the Panzerfaust has 200mm of penetration, the Panzershreck has 180mm. What do the factions who have more of a need to penetrate heavier armour have? 120mm for the Bazooka and PIAT. There is another undermentioned thing with German tank superiority: side skirts to save them from infantry AT. Minor, but every little thing counts and adds up to be an annoyance.

[medbrat]

This thread has entertained me for days now, with all the misconceptions and faulty logic in the posts.
Let me very briefly throw in my tuppence by giving the balancing testers' perspective.

Roughly 90% of the tests for balancing purposes were carried out in the battlezones mode with "No reinforcements" with both infantry and tanks, and 10% in the frontline mode reflecting a very different gameplay of the latter mode. [/*:m:2m26dp6u]
Rough balance was achieved at 350-400 resource points and for 40-minute game duration. If you change these parameters, this balance is lost (for example, playing with 350 res points spread over 90 minutes Germany has no chance to win against USSR subject to non-noob players).[/*:m:2m26dp6u]
The balance is not perfect: USA > USSR > Germany > UK (Japan in the 1.16.4 patch is subject to untested last minute changes, so currently it's by far the weakest nation, perhaps accidentally). The above means that with experienced equal-skilled teams and in absence of crashes USA certainly defeats USSR, USSR certainly beats Germany, etc. though after some intense fighting. Stating that USA is inferior to Germany in battlezones on normal settings is laughable, usually such a match is decided in USA favour within the first 20 minutes. [/*:m:2m26dp6u]
This is subject to further nuances due to unbalanced nature of certain maps. For example, on the Forest even a 10% weaker team playing as USSR would defeat a superior opponent playing as Germany.[/*:m:2m26dp6u]
As pointed out many times, it's essentially impossible to balance the ubiquitous combat mode, other than to revert back to FoW's ahistoric representation of all vehicles. Combat is intended as a learning mode for rookies who are expected to progress to battlezones when they will have learned the basics. It's quite pointless and the range of sensible tactics is limited, which is why people sometimes get an impression that Germany has an advantage in combat. [/*:m:2m26dp6u]
In reality, exactly equal-skilled teams are hard to come by, which is where the slight imbalances help to make the game more interesting, say, an a priori stronger team A may offer to choose a weaker nation than team B.[/*:m:2m26dp6u]
Still, the unbalanced nature of the games remains an issue, even if players are cooperative and agree to switch teams for the sake of balancing because of an often wide variation in their skill levels.[/*:m:2m26dp6u]
The best balancing solution long advocated by me in public and in private is to allow a host to specifically choose unequal starting budgets. Say, an a priori stronger team A gets 350 points while a weaker team B gets 380 points per person. The technical minutiae of the implementation are left to your imagination, but this is all of course subject to both teams' approval. [/*:m:2m26dp6u]
The game designers' response to this suggestion was that most players would fail to understand the concept of asymmetrical budgets and how to use it fairly; or lack the experience needed to intuit the appropriate resource ratio. They want to play safe by going fool-proof.[/*:m:2m26dp6u]

<off-topic banter on>
Below is the funniest thing I read on here:


the superior firepower of the KWK 71 88mm gun was by far the deadliest around, and that gun could even score a kill on the IS2 at ranges up to 4.5KM

I will leave it to Fritz to find out three distinct technical/physical reasons why his 4.5km claim is utter rubbish.
<off-topic banter off>

[Zeke Wolff]

Below is the funniest thing I read on here:


the superior firepower of the KWK 71 88mm gun was by far the deadliest around, and that gun could even score a kill on the IS2 at ranges up to 4.5KM

I will leave it to Fritz to find out three distinct technical/physical reasons why his 4.5km claim is utter rubbish.
<off-topic banter off>

Can´t help it... but I just have to... mention the one time when a Panther knocked out a T-34/76 at a range over 7 kilometres away... (but that´s one time only...)

~Zeke.

[Dingdong]

Things like the T-29, Centurion, IS-3, KV-85, IS-1, and pretty much all of Japan's armor shouldn't even be in this game.

The 122mm gun for the Soviets needs to be looked at as well. The King Tiger and IS-2 aren't exactly an uneven match. Impacts from the 122mm round often times shattered the seams between the welds on the King Tiger's armor. The game also doesn't model tanks becoming bogged down in marshy or muddy terrain or throwing a track if it climbs a hill incorrectly--something which large tanks are extremely prone to doing. Ever wonder why armies didn't exclusively equip themselves with King Tigers?

It also needs a reworking of the infantry squads. American infantry should have Garands across the board. All rifle teams should have 1-3 LMGs. No one but the Soviets should be getting body armor. There will be 1-4 Panzerfausts per squad for Germany and only in certain squads at that.
You're 100% right that learning your unit strengths can help you overcome the handicap USA for example gets because as long as you can keep your 50 cals in the fight you can keep fighting off infantry but this requires some very good commanding skills.


If the KV-85 isn't to be in this game though probably about a fourth of Germany's vehicles don't belong either including the Jagdtiger, Wirbelwind, Sig, Sturmtiger, etc. I think having rare vehicles is okay because in Japan's case for example it's strengths - Air support, naval support and island warfare aren't represented thus making them weaker than they were.

As for infantry squads - there's definitely no balance here. Stormtroopers get STG's (I.e LMGs) , Panzerfausts, dynamite, AT grenades and armor. Armor at the very least should be removed from them, like you said the only country that should have it is the USSR. This would make them unique because the USSR infantry is the most resilient but only gets SMG's , one LMG and one flamethrower whereas the German ones are more flexible but easier to kill. As for Britain/USA, I don't really know what they should get to balance them out, as it is the special British/US units aren't really all that great. I am thinking maybe they should get more LMGs like you said but perhaps also one bazooka man.

[medbrat]

Can´t help it... but I just have to... mention the one time when a Panther knocked out a T-34/76 at a range over 7 kilometres away... (but that´s one time only...)

~Zeke.
But can you help Fritz to come up with the 3 reasons I mentioned? :)

[TeaSeeOh]

medbrat, sorry for calling you out, but are you going to back up that post with any source? Recorded percentages maybe? Or are you just going to leave it like it is, looking like a hat trick you pulled out of nowhere.

Some of what you said doesn't even make much sense:


This is subject to further nuances due to unbalanced nature of certain maps. For example, on the Forest even a 10% weaker team playing as USSR would defeat a superior opponent playing as Germany.

As wouldn't it make more sense that it's unbalanced per starting position and not on a faction choice basis? E.g. the Southern team has a 60% greater chance of winning than the Northern most starting team. Like my percentage by the way? I made it up myself. :grin:


As for Britain/USA, I don't really know what they should get to balance them out, as it is the special British/US units aren't really all that great. I am thinking maybe they should get more LMGs like you said but perhaps also one bazooka man.

I think/wouldn't mind if they were given unique weapons themselves. Rangers get a bazooka equipped man, UK gets 2 infantry with riflegrenades, Commandos get silenced weapons, etc. Just something to even it out a bit.

[Dingdong]

I think/wouldn't mind if they were given unique weapons themselves. Rangers get a bazooka equipped man, UK gets 2 infantry with riflegrenades, Commandos get silenced weapons, etc. Just something to even it out a bit.
That and right now it's just boring, special units just don't feel special .

[pedro0930]

Unkillable from the front at the time of appearance, sure, but once they are detracked, they are worthless.
Send up your Panzer 4G up against that SU85 frontally and see what would happen, or Tiger against that SU100 While it is perhaps unfair to not count those vehicles, their vulnerability is very well known and very often exploited.


I'm at a complete loss here. You discount non-turreted German vehicles, citing their lack of versatility, yet you go on to compare a TURRETED Panzer 4 vs. the SU85. You also mention the Tiger I vs. the SU100. Again, a turreted tank vs. those same tanks that are "worthless," as you say, once detracked.


I bring up the comparison only to show how unfair it is to compare turretless tank destroyer to a tank cost ratio-wise.




No, it was very unbalanced when USA was running rampant with almost disposable cheap level tank everywhere 5 minutes into the game where even Panzer 4H, a 30 points tank can't take out.

The Sherman only had 95 penetration at closest range vs. the Panzer4H's 80 hull armour. Compare to the Sherman's 51(IIRC) armour(maybe around ~64 with the slope) vs. the Panzer4H's 121 penetration. You're grossly exaggerating.


Panzer 4H also happens to have 50mm of turret armor and M4A1's effective frontal armor is at least 70mm (why are you comparing a 30 points tank to a 21 points tank?) while A2 is at least 80mm. If it only has 64mm of armor with slope, it would be a worthless tank, never used like the Cromwell.

Play a real match against Germany as USA and you will see M4A2 will out shoot Panzer 4H.

Comparing tank's penetration at point blank range is also faulty. Tank combat rarely happens at that range and the penetration degradation is nonlinear and different for each gun. Interpreting the penetration table in such a way would let you conclude the US 90mm gun is worse than the German 75mm/L71 gun, a gross mistake and the key reason why Pershing always beats Panther in head on confrontation.

[TeaSeeOh]

Oh, you're right pedro. Just checked and the M4A1 has about ~70 armour with the slope coming into effect. The Cromwell is also better than the M4A1, so I don't see how it's not frequently used in your games. It is in mine.


Comparing tank's penetration at point blank range is also faulty.

I kept noting the <10 range penetration to illustrate just how close you'd have to get to take out 80mm of armour with the Sherman's main gun. You'd have to get within 50 range(and this is being generous), while the Panzer 4 can take you out at around 70-80.

Taking out the turret isn't taking out the tank. It can just be repaired and put back in action for 1 point for any crewmen lost.

[Walderschmidt]

Also, to further my complaint of Germany having more of an advantage infantry wise, the Panzerfaust has 200mm of penetration, the Panzershreck has 180mm. What do the factions who have more of a need to penetrate heavier armour have? 120mm for the Bazooka and PIAT. There is another undermentioned thing with German tank superiority: side skirts to save them from infantry AT. Minor, but every little thing counts and adds up to be an annoyance.

While you are correct that the Germans have superior handheld AT, it shouldn't matter. 120 milimeters of penetration is more than enough. If you're shooting every tank you see in the front then you're doing it wrong.

Here's a guide on the use of bazookas:
http://www.gamereplays.org/menofwar/por ... tegy-guide (http://www.gamereplays.org/menofwar/portals.php?show=page&name=bazooka-strategy-guide)

Also, German side skirts don't matter that much. If you don't want to scower my guide for help then here is the video that deals directly with side-skirts:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f-iNV0C0xHk

Enjoy :)

Regards, Walderschmidt

[pedro0930]

Oh, you're right pedro. Just checked and the M4A1 has about ~70 armour with the slope coming into effect. The Cromwell is also better than the M4A1, so I don't see how it's not frequently used in your games. It is in mine.


Care to explain how? It's only 1 point less, has no 50cal, has less armor, and its gun is only insignificantly stronger than Sherman at no more than 5mm of penetration at all distance (and that's due to the A1 nerf).



Comparing tank's penetration at point blank range is also faulty.

I kept noting the <10 range penetration to illustrate just how close you'd have to get to take out 80mm of armour with the Sherman's main gun. You'd have to get within 50 range(and this is being generous), while the Panzer 4 can take you out at around 70-80.

Taking out the turret isn't taking out the tank. It can just be repaired and put back in action for 1 point for any crewmen lost.

True, except at 70-80 range (and 110 if I am using A2) your turret is already knocked out so you have to retreat. By the time your turret is repaired the next tier tank/TD is already on the field.

[Spearthrower]

Also, to further my complaint of Germany having more of an advantage infantry wise, the Panzerfaust has 200mm of penetration, the Panzershreck has 180mm. What do the factions who have more of a need to penetrate heavier armour have? 120mm for the Bazooka and PIAT. There is another undermentioned thing with German tank superiority: side skirts to save them from infantry AT. Minor, but every little thing counts and adds up to be an annoyance.

While you are correct that the Germans have superior handheld AT, it shouldn't matter. 120 milimeters of penetration is more than enough. If you're shooting every tank you see in the front then you're doing it wrong.

Here's a guide on the use of bazookas:
http://www.gamereplays.org/menofwar/por ... tegy-guide (http://www.gamereplays.org/menofwar/portals.php?show=page&name=bazooka-strategy-guide)

Also, German side skirts don't matter that much. If you don't want to scower my guide for help then here is the video that deals directly with side-skirts:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f-iNV0C0xHk

Enjoy :)

Regards, Walderschmidt

You repeated yourself, but yes this was a good guide. Just because you can look at weak spots doesn't mean anything though. I mean sure its great, but as I'm trying to flank a Russian SPG's or what not my aiming is inaccurate because the tank is on the move (ie the reticule gets wider). Solely depending on bazooka men to take out tanks would be ludicrous, not saying that's what you're suggesting but just making a statement.

I have to note that, even though you're doing it wrong if you shoot a tank from the front, its only another example of how forgiving Germany can be. Germany CAN do it while the other factions can't.

[Dingdong]

Taking out the turret isn't taking out the tank. It can just be repaired and put back in action for 1 point for any crewmen lost.
I am in the habit of having the PZ IVH turret face forward so even if it gets taken out I can just use it as a STUG and kill the sherman anyways, losing the turret isn't as big of an issue as people say it is, I have fought using many tanks with the turret out and did fine.


True, except at 70-80 range (and 110 if I am using A2) your turret is already knocked out so you have to retreat. By the time your turret is repaired the next tier tank/TD is already on the field.

I've surprised many enemies who thought like you - that I am retreating by firing a 75 mm shell right into their hull :)



I have to note that, even though you're doing it wrong if you shoot a tank from the front, its only another example of how forgiving Germany can be. Germany CAN do it while the other factions can't.
Yes Germany is absurdly easy to play, while on the move rarely can a person hit the Balkan cross so the risk of bazookas for many German vehicles is purely frontal (I find that people rarely hit me from the back because the AI doesn't lead and thus often underfires) and you have a gun in the front. Russia, for example has to have some infantry cover its tank destroyers , Germany has to only secure its flanks, the front is relatively safe for it. Also Germany's infantry is just insanely powerful - armored with STG's and panzerfausts insanely overpowered IMO. It's like a squad of 4 guys with machine guns, full armor and 2 more guys who have after-war superbazookas/RPG-7's and armor as well , German infantry needs a serious tone down as machine guns,sub machine guns and rifles are completely ineffective. 1 stormtrooper can easily kill even 3 well covered SMG's so a full squad of storm troopers can kill probably around 12-18 SMG gunners and then blow up some tanks as well. At the very least they should lose their armor. Overall I like playing Germany simply because it's easy mode, I can relax and turtle my way through 95% of games with no problems. As other nations I have to seriously concentrate to fight Germany, it's very tough if the enemy is any good.

[Walderschmidt]

You repeated yourself, but yes this was a good guide. Just because you can look at weak spots doesn't mean anything though. I mean sure its great, but as I'm trying to flank a Russian SPG's or what not my aiming is inaccurate because the tank is on the move (ie the reticule gets wider). Solely depending on bazooka men to take out tanks would be ludicrous, not saying that's what you're suggesting but just making a statement.

I have to note that, even though you're doing it wrong if you shoot a tank from the front, its only another example of how forgiving Germany can be. Germany CAN do it while the other factions can't.

You are correct, I am not suggesting relying entirely on bazookamen as a form of AT. However, I put up the two videos about the Balkan cross and the sweet spots not to tell people to always aim there. but to raise the fact that they are indeed there in the first place. The only "sweet spots" that I deliberately suggesting aiming for were the Balkan crosses on the Panzer IV H and the Stug IV as a means of getting past the side skirts.

While technically I did repeat myself, I included the direct link to the video as a means of highlighting the specific video I was referring to for the point I was trying to make. That is in contrast to having to comb through my guide for the video. Otherwise, I have posted my guide in this thread a second time simply to market it.

Lastly while Germany possesses the majority of tanks which can resist bazooka rounds frontally, these tanks are the heaviest tanks, and besides the King Tiger, are all turretless tank destroyers. Beings the heaviest tanks available, they are bound to be slow and therefore moved around less if the player using them can help it. Otherwise, most every other German vehicle can be penetrated in the front with impunity.

@Ding Dong

While I disagree with your main statement that playing with Germany is essentially multiplayer on easy mode, i just wanted to nitpick a little about your comments about stormtroopers.

While you are correct that they are exceptional special forces, with both assault rifles and panzerfausts, they are only one six-man squad. I have rarely seen people use more than one squad of storm troopers if at all. Therefore, for all their supposed power, their effect on the battlefield is limited to where they are. They are so invincible as you make them out to be though. They are only men bear in mind, and are as susceptible as any to HE shells. I mean, any tank can rain HE from an excess of 110 meters, while the panzerfaust's max range is only thirty. The incident you described where a single stormtrooper takes out three smg troops could be true, but isn't especially extraordinary. Whereas a single stormtrooper can take out many his number with his automatic rifle, a lucky grunt can take out whole squad with a lucky grenade!

Regards, Walderschmidt

[theblitz6794]

enough su 76s can take down any tiger.

[BandAid]

enough su 76s can take down any tiger.

One scout can take out a tiger...
Your point?

[theblitz6794]

if he gets a KT get about 30 su 76s. it will die eventually. hit the side with enough he in 1 shot. then pummel it with AP

[pedro0930]

In what circumstance can you possibly get 30 SU-76, somehow control them all, and use them to fight a Tiger, that, by the way, cost only about 4 SU-76.

[madgelo]

this sums up basic flaw in this game

but i still love this game even tho it seems like game is no longer supported

[theblitz6794]

well, it would just be really funny.

[nagashnikov]

a sherman never won a tiger and the day when it will happen in this game I stop play men of war.

I hate the fact that some people want to change the value of some units to enhance their national ego.
I love this game because the game follows a minimum historical reality

[Spearthrower]

No one ever asked for this, no one is trying to enhance their national ego. There are 10 pages of comments and its obvious you haven't read any of them. I never asked for a buff to Sherman. I asked for Germany to have its more forgiving play style to be fixed. Good points have been bought up about weak spots on tanks, Jumbo Shermans and the advantages other advantages of the Americans (We keep forgetting about UK, and Japan is fine but I have to play a bit more against Germany and the Soviets with Japan.)

The fact is this, while Americans do have the M19 - I would hardly consider that a game changing unit. It's a good tread breaking unit and kill kill light vehicles but as much as the gun is touted as great, it has weak Armour that can be penetrated by many of the early game units the Germany has available to them.

Hetzers,Stugs, JP's, Panthers, Tigers are all units with great armour and great guns yet they don't have to be with anyone else in order to kill something (Obvious exceptions aside) while the Americans are expected to have the Jumbo AND a Micro mission in flanking. Do you see the diference? Germany just needs one tank to move up, take hits and respond to the situation. USA/UK/Japan Depend on one very strong tank/Lots of tanks to Micro/ Infantry to go around and flank Germany Positions.

I would hardly consider the M19 and Jumbo alone to be the justification of an entire arsenal and play style of a specific faction witch is so forgiving. THAT is the issue. Why do the Brits/Japanese/Yanks have to work so hard flanking, finding ways around superior units while the Germans don't. I'm not asking for mass German/Soviet Nerfs. I'm asking for Rangers to stop being so damn useless. I'm asking for Assault Infantry on both the UK and USA side to be put on par or possibly better than the German ones. I'm asking for Options here. I'm also asking for Panzerfausts to be GREATLY reduced in number. There are people sending paratroopers on suicide missions sacrificing one infantry man for a tank. Considering How good the paratroop stamina is, it can be a very cheap tactic because of how much penetration the panzerfaust has.Great Anti-infantry, Great Anti-Tank, and great stamina. Also armed with dynamite at the same costs of Commandos/Rangers.

[nagashnikov]

That's nice, another Wikipedia historian.

I said, forget realism. This is a troll argument ford, you can bring up all these stats without looking at other factors. Why don't Americans have way more tanks and men? Planes? Etc.

So realism doesn't work anyways. I would rather have an intense and balanced game over a super real one. Maybe other might disagree, that's for another discussion. Here we are talking about BALANCE. If the game will stay like this, Germany sitting on its butt while the other 3 factions work their asses off to flank weapons with skill, count me out.


I want realism not science fiction game ... played a battlefield or Coh if you want this kind of game

if I do not play these games because they c although lack of realism at the expense of balance

Both of you, stop it right now. If you don´t agree with each other, discuss the game in a friendly manner, don´t resort to insults (I do count the phrases "another Wikipedia historian" and "played a battlefield or Coh if you want this kind of game if I do not play these games because they c although lack of realism at the expense of balance" as a kind of insult.

We are watching you...

//Zeke, Moderator.

[Spearthrower]

You just completely ignored the post I just made. This is an off topic post and he has derailed the thread twice.

The discussion for realism vs balance is not here.

If you start a discussion about the gameplay, you will have to accept that other players will disagree with you and that other players will be talking about realism vs balance. It has nothing to do with derailing the thread.

//Zeke, Moderator.

[jimopl]

not completely derailoing...yet
back on the true topic: germany is the nation that helps newer players get used to the gamer, every game has one, if you become good with the UK then you are a good MOW player, if not then either you really dont like new straitigies or you dont feel like it either way it doesnt matter and germany only has an advantage with ONE style of playing, this wouldnt be a problem exept most people like to use this tactic, seeing as many before have played COH where that is closest to germanys play style

[Zeke Wolff]

OK, now it is time to lean back and calm down a bit. We moderators have been keeping our eyes on this thread for a while now, and now it is beginning to show it´s ugly face, ie turning in to become a "flame war".

Keep in mind that not everyone is a native English speaker and thus, words can be misunderstood from both sides, ie the one who aint a native English speaker will misunderstood what the English speaking dude wrote, and vice versa.

Everyone has the right to say whatever he/she wants to say, and it isn´t absolutely sure that the latest poster answered a question made by the poster before him, DON´T get upset if you write a long message and the next poster doesn´t answer any of your questions - he might be answering someone elses.

Also, this is a public forum and thus, everyone has the rights to write and ask or answer questions in any thread, even if the original thread maker doesn´t like the postings. NO threads is owned by anyone, the next poster I see writing "Don´t write any in my threads..." and similar stuff, will be receiving a warning and if that´s isn´t enough, then I will go ahead and ban the poster for a shorter time (time equals the seriousness of the "crime"). Be friendly to each other, if not, otherwise the thread will be locked.

//Zeke, Moderator.

[Spearthrower]

So its a flame war when people post off topic reponses? I get quoted for telling people not to post in my threads when I'm told that I'm whining and that they are sick and tired of seeing threads like the ones I post? I know its a public forum, but if a topic is about apples its ok to chime in about oranges? You know its obvious there is bias so you can go ahead and close the thread if you like. If anyone is turning it into a flame its the ones that can't even hold a decent discussion and keep changing the topic of the discussion, that keep straw-manning the thread with comments like "get 30 tanks and kill the tiger hehe", and "If sherman kills tiger then I will not play game" when the freaking thread had NOTHING to do about that. I got angry because he keeps changing the subject of the discussion, and mods are supposed to be there to stop people from doing this. i could have sworn there were different languages, and if this forum can't even abide by the rules of a good discussion then forget it.


not completely derailoing...yet
back on the true topic: germany is the nation that helps newer players get used to the gamer, every game has one, if you become good with the UK then you are a good MOW player, if not then either you really dont like new straitigies or you dont feel like it either way it doesnt matter and germany only has an advantage with ONE style of playing, this wouldnt be a problem exept most people like to use this tactic, seeing as many before have played COH where that is closest to germanys play style I'm totally ok with playing UK and all the other factions. It's great you acknowledge that its harder to play UK, but maybe they could do a little more for UK? Fix Up rangers, etc?

[jimopl]

The main point here is that none of the proposed "problems" can be fixed with a patch, if you really want it to be different all i can say is make a mod or help with the new DMS expansion, these "problems" are too big to be fixed with out massively changing gameplay

[Zeke Wolff]

As I said, calm down and relax a bit.

When you do write in a public forum you´ll have to accept that other people don´t like what you write, and to tell them to not write anything in your threads, that´s something we don´t accept. If you were the owner of the forums, then you could decide the rules...

First, if you had opened up a thread about apples, you would have to accept that someone would claim "Oranges is much tastier than apples".

Second, if you are going to discuss balance in a game like MoW (and its prequel SHOWW2), two games that has been stepping outside the border of balance, you´ll have to accept that people will turn against your opinion and start talking about realism, since that is something that has been the norm for SHOWW2 and MoW since they were released, ie the game designers/developers has strived for realism counter balance. Lately they added T29´s etc, tanks that never saw combat or were produced during WW2, trying to give the Allied players a bit of an advantage. Germany do have it easier than the other nations, since their tanks is so much better than the Allied tanks and that´s simply because that was how it were during WW2 as well. Same thing with their anti-tank weapons like Panzerfausts and Panzerschrecks. These weapons has already been nerfed down by having a terrible range compared to the real things and they were very common during the later stages of WW2. Stg44´s and Fg-42´s should however be less used in MoW, right now they are way too much common. Kar98k were the main weapon for the German infantry and even their famous SMG Mp41 were mostly used by officers and squad leaders, not by the common soldier.

Vanilla MoW is a very non-balanced game when playing as Germany or Russia since their tanks is so much better than the Allied tanks. If you don´t like this, may I then suggest that you do take a look at GSM 2010 and Commanders of War II mods? These two mods allow you to play a 1941, 42, 43, 44, or a 1945 WW2 battles. 1940-41 means that the Germans is the ones who have to learn how to flank, whilst the British with their heavily armored Matilda II´s can just sit back and let the AI decide what to do, and the same is true with the Russian T34.

Also, Men of War: Assault Squad is being worked on right now, and this upcoming title do fix a lot of things, making tanks less common than they are in Men of War today. You wont see as many heavy tanks but more medium tanks which should make the game more enjoyable, cause I do agree with you - when the heavy tank spamming starts, that´s when the game gets boring, no matter which nation you are playing as or against, and this is one of the major reasons to why I have stopped playing Men of War online - I don´t find it funny nor interesting any longer.

~Zeke.

[Hartmann]

First, if you had opened up a thread about apples, you would have to accept that someone would claim "Oranges is much tastier than apples".

~Zeke.

No, that's trolling. It's like asking for help with your computer, and then having someone tell you that you should get a mac instead. Triggering a computer vs mac argument which doesn't help the OP one bit.

[pedro0930]

The fact is this, while Americans do have the M19 - I would hardly consider that a game changing unit. It's a good tread breaking unit and kill kill light vehicles but as much as the gun is touted as great, it has weak Armour that can be penetrated by many of the early game units the Germany has available to them.


M19 also nullify infantry and all but terrain cover.



Hetzers,Stugs, JP's, Panthers, Tigers are all units with great armour and great guns yet they don't have to be with anyone else in order to kill something (Obvious exceptions aside) while the Americans are expected to have the Jumbo AND a Micro mission in flanking. Do you see the diference? Germany just needs one tank to move up, take hits and respond to the situation. USA/UK/Japan Depend on one very strong tank/Lots of tanks to Micro/ Infantry to go around and flank Germany Positions.


I don't really see why people would want to buy the Jumbo when they can just wait a moment more and get the Pershing. At 74 points (alright, I guess the price difference is not that small, but if you get a good flanking vehicle, say, the 30 points Hellcat plus the 48 points jumbo, you are already at 78 points anyways) German has to get the 90 points Jagdpanther, a dedicated tank destroyer, to kill the Pershing at safe distance, and it's not like the Jagdpanther is immune to the 90mm either, if it accidentally too close (the margin is not even that great) the Pershing has equally good chance of killing the Jagdpanther.

Panther and Tiger are both at a disadvantage when fighting the Pershing.

Against the Russian, USA is even better, now at no point does the USA has a tank that's inferior to its opponent. M4A1, even in it's weakened state, still beat both versions of T34/76. M4(76)w finally has its use for killing KV-85 and T34/85. Even the mighty IS2 (at 85 points) still loses to Pershing.

[guynumber7]

I don't really see why people would want to buy the Jumbo when they can just wait a moment more and get the Pershing. At 74 points (alright, I guess the price difference is not that small, but if you get a good flanking vehicle, say, the 30 points Hellcat plus the 48 points jumbo, you are already at 78 points anyways) German has to get the 90 points Jagdpanther, a dedicated tank destroyer, to kill the Pershing at safe distance, and it's not like the Jagdpanther is immune to the 90mm either, if it accidentally too close (the margin is not even that great) the Pershing has equally good chance of killing the Jagdpanther.




While this may be true, Germans can use Nashorn, or Stormtroopers with Fausts, as mentioned earlier.

Russians vs USA is very rare but USA would definaetly win as you said.

In a way, USA is overpowered, but in different ways. Heck, i could say Japan is overpowered because the 300mm rocket can destroy 4 tanks in a single hit.

[FFA702]

First, if you had opened up a thread about apples, you would have to accept that someone would claim "Oranges is much tastier than apples".

~Zeke.

No, that's trolling. It's like asking for help with your computer, and then having someone tell you that you should get a mac instead. Triggering a computer vs mac argument which doesn't help the OP one bit.

No its not trolling.If you start a topic saying mac is better then PC,you should espect some post telling you that PC is better.
Duh?!?!

[madgelo]

I don't really see why people would want to buy the Jumbo when they can just wait a moment more and get the Pershing. At 74 points (alright, I guess the price difference is not that small, but if you get a good flanking vehicle, say, the 30 points Hellcat plus the 48 points jumbo, you are already at 78 points anyways) German has to get the 90 points Jagdpanther, a dedicated tank destroyer, to kill the Pershing at safe distance, and it's not like the Jagdpanther is immune to the 90mm either, if it accidentally too close (the margin is not even that great) the Pershing has equally good chance of killing the Jagdpanther.




While this may be true, Germans can use Nashorn, or Stormtroopers with Fausts, as mentioned earlier.

Russians vs USA is very rare but USA would definaetly win as you said.

In a way, USA is overpowered, but in different ways. Heck, i could say Japan is overpowered because the 300mm rocket can destroy 4 tanks in a single hit.

how exactly does usa win over ussr..

[pedro0930]

How exactly does it not?

[madgelo]

How exactly does it not?
russians are better at everything? only thing that stands out is hellcat on US and few atrs remove that problem

and 152 devastate even t29 very easy

[Minenfeld!]

The "this tank is better than that tank" comparisons are frankly stupid to do. When two nations face off against each other, certain units do come to the forefront, but in the end, it comes down to how well you are able to act and react and how well you know your enemy and your own forces. That and luck.

The ISU-152 is frightening if used correctly, but it's hardly this devastating super weapon. The ISU-152 actually has issues with the Pershing. I'm not sure why anyone is using the T-29.

[Panzerfaust556]

The "this tank is better than that tank" comparisons are frankly stupid to do. When two nations face off against each other, certain units do come to the forefront, but in the end, it comes down to how well you are able to act and react and how well you know your enemy and your own forces. That and luck.


^

There are so many variables in this game that on paper something might work, but in practice it could happen the other way 'round. The only glaringly imbalanced thing Germany has that is elite infantry. Stormtroopers will generally (remember the first sentence?) best any other elite infantry in a firefight, the MP-44 is basically a Mauser on full auto. All that needs to be done is to bring the elite infantry of other nations up to par, and maybe increase the cost of Stormtroopers to 22 points.

[Dingdong]

Well said, Stormtroopers are devastatingly effective while elite troops of other nations are not, if they have the same price they better have the same devastating effect! I don't care if 4 people in a squad get machine guns but if it doesn't improve there's no reason to buy elite US, British, Russian or Japanese units because they don't have the sort of overbearing effect the german ones do. You have to bring out heavy caliber machine guns to mow Stormtroopers down and even then they can survive one shot (they can survive 1 sniper shot too making them ridiculously hard to pick off as it takes forever to kill them off) . As it is currently other nations have to make up with numbers what they lack in elite units and I have to say even buying 18 SMG's just can't compare to 6 stormtroopers , they might beat the stormtroopers by a hair but they don't have the same flexibility and survivability it just doesn't compare.

[Snakeshit]

even then they can survive one shot (they can survive 1 sniper shot too making them ridiculously hard to pick off as it takes forever to kill them off) .

As far as I know and experienced in the game, every unit with body armor could survive 1 sniper shot :huh:

[Dingdong]

Consider that they are armed with STG's and panzerfausts, all other units lack those two thus making them way easier to kill (since they don't pose as large a threat to armored units and infantry). It would be fair to have armor removed from stormtroopers to at least make their weakness defense since their offense is already so good.

[Walderschmidt]

While it's true that StGs and Panzerfaust give Stormtroopers an edge of the other nation special forces, you guys act as if they god-like soldiers.

I mean, there's only a squad of 6 of them. They can't be every right? If you can't best them, then go where they're not and rob them of their ability to have power over you guys.

The King-Tiger is one of the best tanks in the game (some may even argue the best), but no one points that out. Why? Because it's a little easier to get around the King-Tiger. It is easier to avoid one tank than six infantry units. It's also easier to stop feeding the King-Tiger the targets it excels at destroying (tanks), whereas it's a little more difficult with Stormtroopers because Stormtroopers have panzerfausts AND stgs making them excel against all types of targets.

Well, here's a tip. Just because a soldier is wearing body armour, it doesn't mean that he can't be as easily taken out as an average run of the mill soldier. Metal plates don't protect Stormtroopers any better against grenades, 20mm flak guns, or mortar rounds. It simply makes them a little luckier (as in distance from explosions).

Walderschmidt

[Dingdong]

While it's true that StGs and Panzerfaust give Stormtroopers an edge of the other nation special forces, you guys act as if they god-like soldiers.
They have a huge edge over every other soldier, have you never played against or as germans? They will destroy dozens of SMGers without getting hurt significantly.



I mean, there's only a squad of 6 of them. They can't be every right? If you can't best them, then go where they're not and rob them of their ability to have power over you guys.

That's just stupid considering this game is about controlling zones, sure I can kill the said stormtroopers but guess what? They're so cheap that I have to kill them over and over and over again while they exterminate my infantry.



The King-Tiger is one of the best tanks in the game (some may even argue the best), but no one points that out. Why? Because it's a little easier to get around the King-Tiger. It is easier to avoid one tank than six infantry units. It's also easier to stop feeding the King-Tiger the targets it excels at destroying (tanks), whereas it's a little more difficult with Stormtroopers because Stormtroopers have panzerfausts AND stgs making them excel against all types of targets.
Yeah it's easy to stop feeding it targets and lose the game, hey to each their own but personally I want to win that means actually destroying it.




Metal plates don't protect Stormtroopers any better against grenades,
Yes it does, unless the grenade lands very close the damage is going to be at best half, surviving grenades is something stormtroopers excel at not that you will ever get a chance to throw one against a competent german player.



20mm flak guns,
You think stormtroopers just come by themselves? You kill one with the flak gun and 2 seconds later your flak gun catches a shell in the face. .50 cals can kill them too but so what? You can't have flak guns and .50 cals around every corner, for when you don't your infantry is helpless against these heavily armored and heavily armed units. They literally can only be countered by vehicles but the said vehicles need infantry to spot stormtroopers which are very good at killing them..... So if they attack a place that only your infantry is watching well consider that spot lost, by the time a vehicle comes over everyone will be dead.



or mortar rounds.
Mortars tend to have an extremely short life span. That and they don't hurt stormtroopers much, especially not dug in ones, I have had stormtroopers dug in for 5 minutes under mortar fire and no one died. Why? Inaccurate and barely does damage to armored units, the few times it hit the wounds were just healed over. (Place them in craters and laugh as the enemy reveals its mortar to try to kill 1 stormtrooper and get blown to hell minutes later)




It simply makes them a little luckier (as in distance from explosions).

A little? Armor saves units from tons of explosions that regular infantry would never be saved from. Armor is protection against bullets+explosives being extremely effective against both. Combine this with a stock of panzerfausts and STG's and you have a unit that is cheap and very difficult to kill.

[Minenfeld!]

You have to use an absurd amount of firepower to take out stormtroopers. The StG-44 is amazing. I'd be happier if it fired in small bursts. Honestly, we need there to be historical squad load outs and rarity.

[politruk]

They have a huge edge over every other soldier, have you never played against or as germans? They will destroy dozens of SMGers without getting hurt significantly.

Long range artillery is effective against them.
I don't care if I have to pick off each one individually.
They waste 20 points and I waste a few shells.

If they hide in foxholes, which makes it harder for artillery to kill them, simply use grenades.



I mean, there's only a squad of 6 of them.

I always think of them as a 4. The 2 with panzerfausts are useless against infantry.



They're so cheap that I have to kill them over and over and over again while they exterminate my infantry.
I don't know what resource settings you have to use to think of them as cheap.



unless the grenade lands very close the damage is going to be at best half

A grenade can kill a storm trooper even if it lands 3.5 metres away.
Same with all other units.

[HrcAk47]

I personally believe Germany is overpriced. Let's take Panther for example. Its an approx. 70 pts unit (dont know an exact cost, i don't play with Germans that much), yet it was produced in HUGE numbers (compared to other german tanks). Even the german costs IRL say that it was nearly as cheap as the PZ4 (and that's without the skirts).

How about the gun? Overrated, in my opinion. At any range, it has penetration roughly equal to the Hellcat (i captured one alive recently then i used it to conduct tests against the opponent, parralel to a Hellcat), only thing it excells at is the front armor. To be honest, what can kill a Hellcat can kill a Panther from the side. Using a M8 Greyhound on a scouting mission against Panthers is a routine. So, from 70 pts (what it costs today), i'd suggest that it's reduced to 50, 55 tops. Because, the US get the omfg awesome Hellcat at 30, infantry menace Sherman 76 at 45, unkillable Jumbo at 48 and overkill Slugger at 50. And let's just say that Slugger/Pershing have 15/20 larger penetration at all ranges, and are more accurate. Panther should be more teminally accurate at long range.

Tiger 1 is also overly expensive. While i do admit it was overly expensive in IRL, to begin with, it's a tank that was introduced at a roughly equal time as the Sherman M4A1. These days, it gets on the battlefield full of Sluggers, Hellcats, T34/85s and an occasional Su100, to which it can't do a thing.

And the last thing. Nashorn... is a fail on tracks. A big, glowy, specmapped bunch of thin metal plates has been done so wrong i don't get to see why do the Germans buy it at all. Sure, the gun is good, but why does it get a catastrophic explosion after being hit frontally by a M8 Greyhound from maximum range (110) into the upper part of the open topped superstructure?? Even a fuel cistern can stand that! In my opinion, it should get its texture reworked into a camouflaged one, with foliage applied on it, like it's done on Hellcat, and remove the critical explosion factor from it at all. Same goes for all halftracks.

TL; DR, why is this game so focused on the eternal duel between IS2 and King tiger? Nothing else seems to work right.

[Ulrek]

TL; DR, why is this game so focused on the eternal duel between IS2 and King tiger? Nothing else seems to work right.

its focused on rage quits one some one throws a fire bomb or uses a flame thrower on both those tanks while they're busy dueling really..

anyway.. the main reason the germans shine is they've got units like the hummel and long range arty.

playing as the germans i've watched my team mates just sit there with those guns and lay waste to every thing on the the side of the map.

they blew up so much stuff i could launch counter attacks against them meeting only inf and medium tanks at best really.

and about the panther... i'd agree that they're easily knocked out from the side, i'd get scared if i saw a sherman coming up from the side in a panther.

tiger tanks and king tigers are to big of a target and to slow for my tastes, while being to costly.

[Dingdong]

Long range artillery is effective against them.
I don't care if I have to pick off each one individually.
They waste 20 points and I waste a few shells.
Germany has superior artillery your artillery is going to be bombed and then taken out by a cheap unit like a Puma while you snipe stormtroopers. Artillery's task isn't to snipe to begin with and if the enemy allows you to do it then they suck.






I always think of them as a 4. The 2 with panzerfausts are useless against infantry.
That's easy to fix - kill 2 machine gunners, take their guns and you have a full squad. (That or take it off all the wrecked tanks you're chalking up with them)




I don't know what resource settings you have to use to think of them as cheap.
For how effective they are yes they are cheap, they can deal with any unit on the battlefield efficiently besides artillery, tanks? They can destroy them frontally, infantry? Dead. They are the most cost effective infantry unit on the battlefield simply because you can ignore heavier tanks by using them as your guards and then using germany's superior artillery to wreck everything. Concentrated Hummel fire will destroy any tank.



A grenade can kill a storm trooper even if it lands 3.5 metres away.
Same with all other units.
No it can't, armor reduces damage drastically, test it yourself.

Edit: Yep just tested it even a blast from 2.5 meters doesn't kill them (even within 1 meter it fails to ) and beyond that the damage fall of is huge so yeah unless it lands right under their feet it wont kill them. It does a lot less damage if they're laying down thus explaining why mortar shells do so little to them.

[xxax]

How about the gun? Overrated, in my opinion. At any range, it has penetration roughly equal to the Hellcat (i captured one alive recently then i used it to conduct tests against the opponent, parralel to a Hellcat), only thing it excells at is the front armor. To be honest, what can kill a Hellcat can kill a Panther from the side. Using a M8 Greyhound on a scouting mission against Panthers is a routine. So, from 70 pts (what it costs today), i'd suggest that it's reduced to 50, 55 tops. Because, the US get the omfg awesome Hellcat at 30, infantry menace Sherman 76 at 45, unkillable Jumbo at 48 and overkill Slugger at 50. And let's just say that Slugger/Pershing have 15/20 larger penetration at all ranges, and are more accurate. Panther should be more teminally accurate at long range.

Don't agree at all. It's frontal armor can withstand almost anything except for the ultra heavies, it's speed makes it great for flanking and the gun penetration is great. Sure it won't take out an IS2 head on, but almost anything below that is dead. From the flank it can kill anything almost at maximum range.I don't see what RL has to do with it, since if that was the case, USA should have total air superiority and every King Tiger in sight would get bombed to hell.


Tiger 1 is also overly expensive. While i do admit it was overly expensive in IRL, to begin with, it's a tank that was introduced at a roughly equal time as the Sherman M4A1. These days, it gets on the battlefield full of Sluggers, Hellcats, T34/85s and an occasional Su100, to which it can't do a thing.

I kinda agree, but as a support tank it's great (large HE shells). It's not that easy to kill, but when the late game comes, and the better guns start appearing it can get destroyed quite fast. Making it cheaper is a no no since it can still destroy almost any medium tank the others have, without much worry of getting destroyed.


And the last thing. Nashorn... is a fail on tracks. A big, glowy, specmapped bunch of thin metal plates has been done so wrong i don't get to see why do the Germans buy it at all. Sure, the gun is good, but why does it get a catastrophic explosion after being hit frontally by a M8 Greyhound from maximum range (110) into the upper part of the open topped superstructure?? Even a fuel cistern can stand that! In my opinion, it should get its texture reworked into a camouflaged one, with foliage applied on it, like it's done on Hellcat, and remove the critical explosion factor from it at all. Same goes for all halftracks.

Totally agree here. I think the problem here is the range. I was playing GSM mod and i accidentally bought a Nashorn. At the end it killed everything in sight. The range was much bigger, so most tanks couldn't get near without getting destroyed and the gun penetration was better. But everytime i buy it in vanilla, i try to shoot something (Sherman), i miss or something and the next thing i know the Nashorn is dead. Total waste of points. Much better to wait for the Jagdpanther.

I don't think Germany is overpriced. Their Stormtroopers are the best, the Hetzer is cheap and really effective till late game and if you don't like the Panther or Tiger their tank destroyers are insanely good. Not to mention their artillery is great. So making them cheaper turns them into a Superfaction.

[Spearthrower]

I always think of them as a 4. The 2 with panzerfausts are useless against infantry.
The hilarious thing is this, they are also armed with sub-machine guns. That's a nice rebuttal though, I have to say. Guess what? A generalist solider armed with with a sub-machine gun, great stamina, and the skill to use said sub machine (has THREE chevrons or whatever the yellow marks are, HE IS ELITE IN SUBMACHINE GUNS AND CAN FRONTALLY PENETRATE A TANK - YEAH JUST 4 GUYS NO NEED TO COUNT HIM IN) is better than one man armed only with a bazooka. Fallschirmjagers cost 15 points, the bazooka costs 7 which is OK; at half the points you get one man defenseless against other infantry unless you hurl an AT grenade which pretty much turns him into a kamikaze solider, for 15 you get 6 men, two armed with superior skill less weapons (skill less because you can make them lob a smoke grenade, run out, frontally penetrate a tank, and then laugh your ass off at how good you are and how the other guy "Doesn't support his tanks" or "Just doesn't get the game") that HAVE BETTER PENETRATION. Instead of it being 15 for 2 men with 2 panzerfausts its an entire squad that can attack points and fend off HEAVY TANKS. FG42's and Dynamite are just icing on the cake. But hey! GERMANY WAS GREAT IN WW2, ITS LEGIT, CHECK WIKIPEDIA.

Hey, what about Japanese Paras, English Mandos, or USA Rangers? They cost 15 as well don't they? Guess what? They don't have Panzer fausts do they? yeah the other guys might be specialized in taking on infantry but Fallschirmjagers do just as fine don't they? Another thing I have to note is this, Please DMS if you read this, make a patch so that Rangers get M1 garands instead of Carbines. Please give Rangers M1 Garands instead of weak guns. All you did with the carbines was gimp them. Please give them Garands and drop the stupid carbines. Let the Mandos come with a marksmanish type of guy, he has the ability to scout ahead but doesn't have to skill of a sniper (give him binocs or something), and for japan, I don't know. If you do this then you can let the Paras have their fausts.

[HrcAk47]

I don't think Germany is overpriced. Their Stormtroopers are the best, the Hetzer is cheap and really effective till late game and if you don't like the Panther or Tiger their tank destroyers are insanely good. Not to mention their artillery is great. So making them cheaper turns them into a Superfaction.

When playing with Payback (which i usually do), Germans lack oomph in their guns for the whole 30 minutes. There i am, blasting Pz4 after Pz4 after Hetzer after Stug after Jagdpanzer with my Slugger and they can't do a thing about it. Panther needs a cost deduction, urgently.

[FearedxRawr]

Spearthrower, It seems to me like you really enjoy pointing out every little thing that goes wrong when you...Well, DONT win.

And even your little thing about "They dont support tanks" or "Dont get the game" is not even true.
If they have no infantry with the tank, That is not support. If they dont understand how to defend and attack they dont get the game.

It is that simple.
Seriously, I'll gladly play against you and show you how the other elites and what not ARE just as powerful.
Even the supposed weak carbine can seriously damage the enemy.

~Feared.

[Spearthrower]

Spearthrower, It seems to me like you really enjoy pointing out every little thing that goes wrong when you...Well, DONT win.

Where in my post did you get this? Why don't you comprehend about FACTS rather than opinion?

Falls cost 15 points. Check

Panzerfausts have more penetration than the bazooka. Check

Panzerfaust equipped men have three gold bars for their SMG skill, therefore making them elite in the sub machine guns. Check

Panzerfausts can frontally penetrate tanks. Check

Where did I state that I was losing, or that I lost a game? Or whatever assumption of that sort?

I've pointed out solid things, the only thing you have on me aside from the fact that you LOVE GERMANY SO MUCH, is that I like pointing out flaws in the game? Flaws that favor Germany in a horrendous way? I'm left gawking at how one man can run out of a bush, end your tank, and all you can muster up is "You got it wrong, support you tanks! Play me and see!" Completely ignoring the things I pointed up, such as cost, and the stats on the P faust. Do you really like Germany that much?

To HrcAK47

When playing with Payback (which i usually do), Germans lack oomph in their guns for the whole 30 minutes. I tend to play more in the "No Refund" games. I rarely if ever play "With payback". It's a good thing you revealed this as these two modes are different and I really don't know things work in the game mode you play. This is probably why we have disagreements on certain things and why it may seem like I am not understanding your point of view. That being said, things probably work a whole other way since you probably don't play much, or very little of the "No Refund" game mode. I hope that clears up some misunderstandings.

[jimopl]

READ THIS ONE SPEAR, at least before the others to help clear up the thread topic, look at it this way, say your were an american tank commander(or british) you wouldnt dare take on a german panzer head up, no, you'd try to flank, now if you were a german panzer commander you would have no problem faceing an allied tank head up, you'd easily defat them head up, and you wouldnt have to flank, do you se what im saying this game incorperates BOTH balenced and realism in mulitplayer games. ;)
oh and well of course the Allies dont have panzerfaust's those are a german thing silly

[FearedxRawr]

When have I said I like Germany as much as you seem to say?
Just because you make no sense me, I'm going to put this as detailed and clear as I can.

Firstly, You dont seem to understand what I mean..I'm clearly stating that you seem to complain about the majority of things that DO NOT help you.

Secondly, Is it just me or do your posts seem to only target the German faction.
If we want to get as technical as you seem to think you are..We gladly can.
USSR should be boosted because they dont have any really amazing uber tank killing AT guns.
UK should get a better Mg because after all the Bren doesn't compare to the Mg42.
US should get 12 tanks for every Tiger.
Japan should get Godzilla.

Ahem, More seriously..I dont really like you in any way at all.
But atleast I can be civil about it.

I dont play as Germany in every game. Plus, Most my games are Infantry only..So I dont have to face any overbaring tank conflict. Also, I only use German at best when I'm playing with my friends.

Never the less, I do not mean to come off as demanding in my posts but you dont seem to like when anyone disagrees with whatever you say.

~Feared.

[ngvede]

This thread is (again) on the verge of "uncivilised" discussion...

From what I can see it's the same people (from the beginning) running in circles proving nothing to each other. Another thing that I just realised (from last few posts) that you guys all play different game modes with different settings. Maybe if you want to achieve something it would be a good idea to point out what game setting and what game mode you are talking about. How about from now on your first sentence points out exactly what your settings are and what mode you play. Every post! I went through few posts and already forgot who plays what.

It might help clear things up...

//ngvede

[Spearthrower]

Never the less, I do not mean to come off as demanding in my posts but you dont seem to like when anyone disagrees with whatever you say. You say I'm complaining to things I lose to, while not taking into consideration of the facts I pointed out. A zook man doesn't have the stamina or penetrating power of a Falls, and you seem to be ok with it. A falls is an elite solider which is ok but he is armed with dangerous sub machine gun skill on top of a monster AT weapon. When I point this out I'm told I'm simply complaining and to "support my tanks with inf"

Panzershrecks also get more penetration according to the game and the guide written by a gentleman in these threads (forgot his name).

More advantages on top of MP44's, Superior tanks, and excellent artillery.

Advantages...


READ THIS ONE SPEAR, at least before the others to help clear up the thread topic, look at it this way, say your were an american tank commander(or british) you wouldnt dare take on a german panzer head up, no, you'd try to flank, now if you were a german panzer commander you would have no problem faceing an allied tank head up, you'd easily defat them head up, and you wouldnt have to flank, do you se what im saying this game incorperates BOTH balenced and realism in mulitplayer games. ;)
oh and well of course the Allies dont have panzerfaust's those are a german thing silly While I'm happy you agree on me about the Pfaust , I disagree with you. The advantages I stated were maybe true to life. Sure the Germans were masters of war at their time, but this is a video game, and I don't like playing games where I'm at a disadvantage. You say as a British commander I would try and flank, where are the other 3 or so tanks to flank with? When me and my opponent are getting points at the same time and rate, where does the advantage of realism and me having more tanks than the Germans apply? Where is the realism? Sure the stats of the tanks might be real, but the situation is frustrating when you're pouring effort into destroying one tank while he drives up, kills your tank and backs off. Even worse, when his elite men storm an area, the 6 men split into 2 units (3 each with a pafaust and FG-42 each), fights off your men and with a simple command penetrates your sherman/or whatever, and either disables it or destroys it outright. Yup we have balance. But I hear you about realism.

Advantages, it's ok but Germany (and soviets, I have beef with the soviets as well but one thing at a time for now) has too many of them. It translates into frustration for the other player. He puts extra effort into said flanking while Germany sits on its ass and pounds you with a hummel and you're expected to pull an action movie with a greyhound run up destroy it, and ride off into the sunset. What happens? The guy spawns a unit before you can even get close (Because hummels are usually around the spawn point, they have the range too shoot from there ie the work shop map) Why do I have to pull stunts like this to kill king tigers, panther and the like? I have to set intricate traps to take stuff down while the German/Soviet player uses a fausts or a heavy arty tanks and "HAH I'm so GREAT at this game jesus!"

It's unfair. That's ok, but they arm commandos with Thompsons - the laziness of the devs, not stens, or silenced stens, or something to say "DAMN those mando's are ELITE. They live up to the reputation of men who pretty much are the models of the special forces units of today!" no. It's ok though when the glory days of the Germans are bought, the glory of their tanks and all. And rangers? OMG THEY GET CARBINES. Good lord guys, praise creation for such a gift - while a hummel moves up and evaporates the entire 3- of the six men in the unit, and the other 3 get sniped but MP44's. You won't move up though because you have to spend money for three tanks 2 of which will undoubtedly fall to the hetzer ahead of you,and a falls or assault inf guy who was hiding in a crater or bush who laughs as his ridiculously cheap unit auto fired and crippled a Sherman without any help at all. The computer did it all for him. I could go on but I'm done. Close the thread of you like. Enjoy the game fellas.

[TeaSeeOh]

You guys seem to want to reenact World War 2, rather than play a fun and balanced game. It's funny to see that no one tries to disprove Spear's points on Panzerfausts, Germany Paratroopers/Assault Infantry superiority, the other factions more active play style, and the lack of originality for US/UK elite infantry. These are all things you cannot deny, yet this thread is still going on with people arguing back and forth? For what? Analogies on "if I was a tank commander in World War 2?"

If I was a tank commander in World War 2, I wouldn't have to wait on some arbitrary resource income system to outnumber his tanks 5 to 1. And I SURE as HELL would not be facing 4 MP44's to every 2 M1 Garands. You want to play the realism card? MP44's weren't mass produced to every elite infantryman Germany could name, they were actually a rarity in comparison to the various rifles used during WW2(you see flamethrower infantry more than riflemen in this game). This is called history, you can't deny this either.

It's only realistic when you want it to be, apparently.

[FearedxRawr]

To be honest, This threat doesn't even peak my interest anymore.
It just doesn't even suit a purpose.

I can be agree at some extent German is rather powerful by even a bad player.
But you cannot act as if they win and destroy everyone and everything.

But enough of this..It seems like it just wastes my time and whomever else adds to this thread.
Apparently, Spearthrower is right about everything and anyone who disagrees is wrong.

~Feared.

[Dingdong]

I think this game would be a lot more fun if it used realistic values - American infantry rushing with mass garands and a sherman in support , Germany in smaller numbers but with good units, Soviets with a mix of riflemen and semi auto-riflemen with exclusive use of the body armor (maybe USA also, flak jacket?). That and it would be a lot more fun if the units reacted instantly to threats like real human beings (You know actually reacting instantly and moving to cover like any reasonable person would do?) , moved like real human beings, ran at the enemy and fired from the hip, spread out automatically, advance automatically, you know the features that are in your key bindings but never actually worked? Id prefer there would be no Japan (crap nation anyways I hate playing as them or against them) and rather there be some implementation of nicer interface, better AI, better animations, more commands and provide balance through realism because the war WAS BALANCED if it was like in this game Germany would have won.


As it is now I bet the way they'll fix the stormtroopers is just remove the body armor or just give them fewer STG's, that's lame and lazy. Do you guys seriously want more content? I am sorry but this game came with a ton of maps and because of the awkwardness of the AI they just don't feel all that different or inspired. It always plays out to camping and shelling with arty because arty is just so much safer and less annoying then having to deal with retarded pathfinding and slow reaction times. (I wince every time I see the grenade animation, it's just so awkward...Or how infantry react to being underfire, ughhhhh just....UGHHHH ) also wtf is with flames? People caught under a burning tree get glued to it, flamethrowers often set themselves on fire, troops in burning buildings stop responding, what a mess!!! The game is overall so awkwardly slow it's just so awkward, there's not other word for it. These issues have plagued this series from the beginning and it's never fixed, I am a pretty casual gamer and I am not a master at this game but if I had less patience I would have uninstalled this game within a week. That is how most of my friends react to it they tell me "Its a good idea but the implementation is crap and awkward", that's why the community is so small, the ideas sound fantastic but there's a chasm between having the ideas in and implementing them well.

[xxax]

...more commands and provide balance through realism because the war WAS BALANCED if it was like in this game Germany would have won.

No it was not.



As it is now I bet the way they'll fix the stormtroopers is just remove the body armor or just give them fewer STG's, that's lame and lazy. Do you guys seriously want more content? I am sorry but this game came with a ton of maps and because of the awkwardness of the AI they just don't feel all that different or inspired. It always plays out to camping and shelling with arty because arty is just so much safer and less annoying then having to deal with retarded pathfinding and slow reaction times. (I wince every time I see the grenade animation, it's just so awkward...Or how infantry react to being underfire, ughhhhh just....UGHHHH ) also wtf is with flames? People caught under a burning tree get glued to it, flamethrowers often set themselves on fire, troops in burning buildings stop responding, what a mess!!! The game is overall so awkwardly slow it's just so awkward, there's not other word for it. These issues have plagued this series from the beginning and it's never fixed, I am a pretty casual gamer and I am not a master at this game but if I had less patience I would have uninstalled this game within a week. That is how most of my friends react to it they tell me "Its a good idea but the implementation is crap and awkward", that's why the community is so small, the ideas sound fantastic but there's a chasm between having the ideas in and implementing them well.

Basically you don't like the game and you'd rather it was totally different. Camping and shelling doesn't work in battle zones.


You guys seem to want to reenact World War 2, rather than play a fun and balanced game. It's funny to see that no one tries to disprove Spear's points on Panzerfausts, Germany Paratroopers/Assault Infantry superiority, the other factions more active play style, and the lack of originality for US/UK elite infantry. These are all things you cannot deny, yet this thread is still going on with people arguing back and forth? For what? Analogies on "if I was a tank commander in World War 2?"

That's right, i don't want a fun and balanced game. Because if i want total balance i'd go play World in Conflict, where both sides have the exact same units. Or maybe i'd play chess, but even there the white player has the advantage.

Althou there are some valid points in this thread some of you are taking it too far. When i started playing i would lose whichever side i was playing and i thought, yeah it's unbalanced. I'd play as USSR and the German heavy's would destroy anything i dished out. I would play Germany and mid game, USSR would be kicking my butt with their 85mm. I'd bring out a heavy and it get destroyed by a scout or flanked. Of course i was pissed. But after playing more i saw that it was all about standing on one side of the map and firing at each others tank at full range. In recent games i've played i've never thought, if my USSR assault infantry was as good as Stormtroopers i'd win...

I don't know. Maybe you guys play with the best players around, so the teams are so balanced that faction advantages are gamebreaking. When i play, one team is usually better than another, and even when they are kinda evenly matched we've managed to win UK vs GER and USA vs GER (with 500+ points). Sure you can say if everything was evenly matched GER would win, but it's not. And i like it. But maybe it's just me.

EDIT: oh and i play Battlezones, usually larger games 3vs3+ with points ranging from 350-600.

[HrcAk47]

While i do agree that infantry is balanced in a completely wrong way (again focused on the eternal Soviet vs German conflict), tanks are done rather well, with exceptions in pricing.

I'd balance infantry like this.

Germany will have an all purpose squad of 6 Rifles, a SMGunner sergeant and a MG34 machine gunner, and one guy armed with Panzerfaust. They were common, you can't dispute that. Paratroopers will stay the way they are. Stormtroopers will lose the bodyarmor.

Russia will have rifles and smgunners the way they are now, but both squads shall have a conjoined DP27 mgunner. All support squads should pack a Mosin rather than a SMG which was reserved for soviet SMG squads.

USA will have all its support units (miners, deminers, engineers... armed with M3A1, cause it was more common rear-line weapon.) All rifles will pack Garand because it was common. Thompson will get a bit upped damage, because you can easily compare the .45 bullet hole (11,43 mm) to a simple old 9 mm. They will lose the SMG squad, and armors on assault infantry, but all squads should have a BAR gunner attached, and rangers and assault squads should get a bazooka.

But well. I guess this will be on topic for the Assault Squad. They promised more accent on infantry rather than on Ger vs. SU duel in Tanks only games...

[xxax]

But well. I guess this will be on topic for the Assault Squad. They promised more accent on infantry rather than on Ger vs. SU duel in Tanks only games...

From what i understand and what some people have written on gamereplays forums (who are testing) squads are now mixed, like u said.


This is not the case with AS. In AS there is a much larger variety of infranty squads, they are better equiped, and they are much cheaper, realitive to tanks. For excample we have the "Rifle Squad" in MoW, and the "Regular Squad" in AS. A rifle squad is equiped with only long distance semi-or bolt action rifles, AP nades and nothing else. A regular squad has a light MG, a squad leader with a Sub machine gun, AT and AP nades, and is in general much better at any task. Another important change is taht machine guns, and carbines now fire at half their history values. This is Amazingly faster than they fire in MoW. There are also, "Assult Squads" with mostly Sub machine guns, Rangers, with Amazing carbine rifles and many shaped charged rockets, Airbore rangers, with lighter guns recoiless rifles and panzer checks, and many others. Basically what this does is it makes each squad much more useful given its price, and makes them useful at all times.

[Hartmann]

In AS infantry comes in 10 man mixed squads. Allied elite infantry is pretty much just as powerful as German elites. Rangers have Johnson rifles and LMG's + 2 recoilless rifles. While the Stormtroopers, now Panzergrenadiers, are fully equipped with StGs and an armory of panzerfausts. Panzergrens seem to be able to take slightly more damage then Rangers, but they are also slower.

Tank combat is fixed by increasing power of all guns, 150m used to be 3000m(?) and its now something like 1500m. Every tank is expensive, Heavy tanks are very expensive, superheavies don't show up in serious games. A Tiger is about 30% of your total points, a Kingtiger is something like 75% of all your points. Max gun ranges are adjusted to the power of guns as well. KwK43 max 200m, 88mm is max 180m etc.

So this is the way all the issues OP mentioned are fixed in AS. Most likely nothing significant will be changed by Bestway for the vanilla game.

There's some more information on Gamereplays if you're interested.

[jimopl]

Yes its true alot of the things people had complained about before is being fixed in AS, infintry is accually a whole lot more needed then before, plus I can agree with spear about the tanks balancing wrong...with cost and all, well thats also being fixed( price ranges)

[Dingdong]

Tank combat is fixed by increasing power of all guns, 150m used to be 3000m(?)


You mean field guns? They still fire up to around 270-300 units , they're just most useful at 150 units (1500 meters) but if you amass 2 or 3 you can fire from much further away.

[TeaSeeOh]

I can be agree at some extent German is rather powerful by even a bad player.

Nothing more needs to be said if you're in agreement with what the OP had to say.



But you cannot act as if they win and destroy everyone and everything.

Who is this directed at? Honestly, who are you talking to? Are you just skimming Spearthrower and my posts?


No one denied that Germany's tanks can't be killed, let me reiterate, they aren't unbeatable (http://www.digitalmindsoft.eu/forums/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=6030&p=72001#p72001)

I just don't understand.

[FearedxRawr]

My posts here were aimed all AT Spearthrower.
Not you, Not anyone else.

Please understand that in no way, Did I mean to offend anyone.
It is just my nature to be slightly less tolerable with threads like this.

~Feared.

[UsF]

Saying that is easier for beginners to play Germany, doesn't mean that this goes through to high level gameplay. In other games, there are also easy-factions, that win easier than others, when players of mediocre or lower skills meet on the battlefield. This happens in other games too, like shooters and their guns. However this doesn't mean the faction is overpowered yet.
While a nation might have a lower entrance level required to be played, it can have a lower or the same skill ceiling as any other nation. The skill ceiling is the thing you need to look at and you need great experience to find it yourself.
Germany is easier to play for beginners, because their tanks require less micromanagement, if the enemy is rather inactive or uses the ai to do stuff. On higher levels of pvp, the mobility and versatility of the vehicles from other nations come more and more into play, leaving Germany vulnerable in game modes that require to push forward, when you lost ground, since the vehicles are rather slow. The early ones do not have sloped armor, so the only way to increase the chance to deflect projectiles, is to tilt the tank sideways to the enemy, which might leave the exposed side open to an attack. Sure you can circumvent that, put that side behind a house, etc, but I think you get what I mean.
I do not know how much skill you have, all I know is that I have yet to see the skill ceilings of pvp, since I rather play it anyway, because I seem to get easily frustrated against human players.

Germanys advantage in the armory-department comes at the cost of numbers, which gives other factions more possibilites to flank (of course only when using a reasonable resource setting). The US has cheap fast tanks that are versatile against infantry and tanks at the same time, even without switching the shells of the main gun (thanks to the anti air mg). Japanese have excellent infantry that can take on germans and the british are also rather good in the riflemen or smg plus smoke department.
Combined arms is always required to beat an opponent and is the main focus the game balances its gameplay around. If you play high resource no artillery games (for example) and wonder, why the german vehicles are winning, then there is a reason for that, they had tanks designed for exactly this fighting style.

[Dingdong]

Japanese have excellent infantry that can take on germans and the british are also rather good in the riflemen or smg plus smoke department.
You're playing a different game from us clearly, Japanese infantry cannot take on Germans not even close, try to send Japanese elite against stormtroopers and watch as they get completely exterminated likely not dealing a single casualty against the Stormtroopers. Japanese SMG's = complete crap, Mg's are nothing special and special forces are garbage. Japan's only alright aspect are the riflemen which perform okay. As for Brits they similarly have awful smgs, riflemen are all the same for all nations and wtf is plus smoke? All smgs get smoke.



Combined arms is always required to beat an opponent and is the main focus the game balances its gameplay around. If you play high resource no artillery games (for example) and wonder, why the german vehicles are winning, then there is a reason for that, they had tanks designed for exactly this fighting style.
The Germans have better artillery to begin with USA and Britain both have only one piece of artillery that does any appreciable damage. Allied rocket artillery is laughably weak, their howitzers are low-caliber crap-fests and nothing they have can compare to a Hummel. Germany might have slower vehicles but considering that they have side skirts that minimize the danger of bazooka men it balances it out completely, so you're a bit slower, big deal. I like it more anyways, lets my infantry run ahead more.

It's -possible- to win against Germany but it's always an uphill battle, you really do have to have an advantage in skill and organization to win, it's not that Germans are easier to learn it's that they can be effective in a lot more scenarios and can more boldly evaluate their options because all of their options are good. Want to slug it off with tanks? Your tanks are murderers, from the flank or from the front, want to shell an enemy to death? You have the better arty, want to send out some inf to hunt tanks and kill enemy inf? You've got the best inf to do it with. Yeah Germany doesn't get .50 cals and small stuff like that but big deal. Who else has such insanely good armor, or such a great piece of arty like a hummel? It's well armored yet it can fire as far as a field gun. Who else has stormtroopers? Panzerfausts, armor and Stgs, who else has side skirts? Who else has rocket launchers that can penetrate 200 mm of armor AND they come on an elite, armored unit which also has a self-defense weapon, anti tank nades and AP nades? Germany has a lot of really big advantages. It's just a good nation to play.

[HrcAk47]

There is one thing that people forget: that's a player not able to simultaneously micromanage all of his assets. So a gap can be found in german defenses.

Also, i do agree that Allied rocket artillery is hillariously weak against armor. Will the devs be so kind to tell me where's the logic of making 132 mm Katuysha's rockets so horrendously overpowering 114 mm Calliope rockets. In my opinion, it's a leftover of the r-tard balancing from FoW. I guess KT can have all stats awesome because it's like that in reality, but Calliope is imba, so it needs to be downgraded.

Then again, T34E2 Calliope had 60 tubes of 183 mm rockets. And that's something bigger than Panzerwerfer, significantly. However, only Soviets and Germans get to have rocket tank destroyers.


But, Calliope is also an incredible infantry support asset. That's one weapon that can disinfect a flag, and provide a lot of cover for your upcoming troops, then drop another half of its rockets on the upcoming counterattack, while simultaneously dropping hell with 75 mm HE shells from the gun and coax mgun. So yea, it's rather likable weapon.


I'm not asking for a downgrade of German stuff, they're not good not even the way they are now, but i just want the devs to play it fair.

PM: How about a Firefly with 2 RP3 3 in 60 lb. rockets for the Brits (Sherman Tulip)? I think a rocket with 60 lb. warhead could do things to armor...

[guynumber7]

yeah the tulip would be cool.

and i never understood why calliopie was so weak. Even the German Rakatenwerfer should be more powerul considering it shoots 300mm rockets, but the panzerwerfer is almost just as powerful even though its rockets are only 15cm.

[Zeke Wolff]

PM: How about a Firefly with 2 RP3 3 in 60 lb. rockets for the Brits (Sherman Tulip)? I think a rocket with 60 lb. warhead could do things to armor...

My guess it that this vehicle isn´t included due to the fact that it was very rare vehicle and more importantly, a field modified vehicle and not a standard production vehicle.


and i never understood why calliopie was so weak. Even the German Rakatenwerfer should be more powerul considering it shoots 300mm rockets, but the panzerwerfer is almost just as powerful even though its rockets are only 15cm.

The Calliope isn´t weak, it´s the other rocket armed vehicles that is way too much overpowered. In fact, the Calliope is probably the one that is the most historically correct of them all. Both the Katyusha and the German Nebelwerfers is way too powerful in the game today. These weapons were designed to be used as anti-infantry weapons and against softskinned vehicles, not anti-tank weapons that they are in the game now.

~Zeke.

[guynumber7]

ill agree that the katy is overpowered considering its rockets are only 132mm, but the Rakatenwerfer is 300mm, and that is pretty darn big. Those would mess up tanks. (almost as big as strumtiger round)

[Fonzie]

300mm != 380mm

Also the one in game fires 150mm rockets.

[Zeke Wolff]

And bigger shells doesnt always mean that they would be more lethal to enemy tanks. For example, the Sherman armed with a 75mm gun, had better HE capabilities than the 76mm armed Sherman, since it´s 75mm HE shells packed a bigger charge than the 76mm shells, and this is one of the reasons to why the US Army for a very long time rejected to "uparm" their 75mm Shermans.

The 38cm Rocket Mortar as used by the Sturmtiger, fired a round that was designed to knock out enemy bunkers (it was originally designed to be an anti-submarine weapon) and thus, it was capable of penetrate thru thick concrete walls etc, whilst the 15, 28, 30 and 32cm rockets fired by Nebelwerfers, were designed as area targets, not as anti-tank weapons. Their war heads were mostly designed to explode and throw out splinters but the 32cm rockets, were filled with napalm.

Same thing with the 8.8cm KwK56. It had a larger calibre than the 7.5cm KwK42 as carried by the Panther, but still the Panthers gun were much more lethal than the 8.8cm carried by the Tiger I.

Bigger doesnt always mean... better...

~Zeke.

[Panzerfaust556]

No, fonzie. The one in game does not fire 150mm rockets. Not out of the box, at least. If you look at its ammunition when you buy it you'll see it has 300somethingmm rockets, however once you run out of those rockets you need to use Panzerwerfer ammo 'cause there isn't any Raketenwerfer ammo in the supply truck.