Question on Anti Tank Grenades

[Dominatus]

Hello there
I'm a big fan of DCG as I love looking in all my books and then actually seeing realistic uniforms and weps :) But there is one thing I'm not to sure about in Mow and that is if AT grenades are supposed to be as strong as they are or is it simply a balance to tank spam? If that's the case is there a way to mod the dmg value?
Cheers Dom :)

[Nanaki]

My opinion on anti-tank grenades from my early-war experiance is that they are strong, but they are supposed to be strong (Early-war tanks are pretty much armored out of paper mache). However, what is off is the fact that AT Grenades are everywhere, every regular soldier carries one and every AT Trooper/Squad leader carries two. With that many AT Grenades floating around everywhere among very common troops, even one soldier getting through your tank's defensive screen is pretty much death for that tank.

Now, I have not experianced how later-war tanks and heavier armor fare against AT Grenades, so my opinion could change. I do know a Matilda II has a decent chance of surviving a regular AT Grenade and it is only as armored as a Sherman.

Also, certain AT Grenades are higher quality than others, and thus have much greater penetration ratings against tanks.

[Kohlrabi]

The amount of AT-grenades has been reduced for the next version (as stated in the Infantry Pack thread).
AT-grenades have to compensate for the lack of in-game rifle-grenades though, something that was used quite a lot as a bridge between AT-rifles and bazookas.

Edit:
Actually there is a certain kind of balancing involved with (even the reduced amount of) AT grenades.
The DCG infantry <-> tanks ratio is rather off, historically speaking, so increasing the amount of AT grenades a little makes sense. (although I still have to find any exact figures on how common AT grenades were... if someone would find that, I'd love to take part of it)

@Dominatus: Thanks btw, I'm working hard on those darn uniforms :)

[Theriel]

So... instead of balancing it... is there any way to get a more realistic Infantry-tanks ratio?

[Kohlrabi]

I doubt the majority would be happy about 1000 infantrymen to every tank :)
It is very much possible though, to create operations with more historical ratios.

[Nanaki]

Looking up historical numbers, AT Grenades are actually a lot more powerful than they should be. For example, the RGD-40 could historically only penetrate 20mm of armor, only making it effective against vehicles and light tanks like the Panzer I and II, but in-game it can penetrate 80mm of armor, making it capable of taking down the Panzer III, IV, and Matilda II with ease.

Edit: The PWM-1 is actually underpowered, in-game it only has a penetration of 120mm of armor yet it could actually penetrate 150mm of armor. The M24x5 is a bit hard to say, it is hard to find any penetration ratings of bundled grenades. It looks like the M24x9 vairant of Geballte Ladung had a penetration rating of 60mm, though, so I imagine the x5 variant would have a penetration rating of around 30-35mm...


So... instead of balancing it... is there any way to get a more realistic Infantry-tanks ratio?

Not without revamping the way DCG counts a squad. The flaw with DCG's squad-counting is that it counts a vehicle/tank (and any vehicle, tank, from the lowest motorbike to the King Tiger) as equivilant to 8 infantry soldiers.

[Kohlrabi]

Looking up historical numbers, AT Grenades are actually a lot more powerful than they should be. For example, the RGD-40 could historically only penetrate 20mm of armor, only making it effective against vehicles and light tanks like the Panzer I and II, but in-game it can penetrate 80mm of armor, making it capable of taking down the Panzer III, IV, and Matilda II with ease.

Yes, but there were other AT-grenades able to penetrate up to 150mm.
Also, MoW doesn't take into account magnetic AT-weapons (or non-magnetic) placed at or on top of the tanks (greatly increasing penetration)... AT grenades also have to substitute a wide variety of tank countermeasures not implemented in the game.



Not without revamping the way DCG counts a squad. The flaw with DCG's squad-counting is that it counts a vehicle/tank (and any vehicle, tank, from the lowest motorbike to the King Tiger) as equivilant to 8 infantry soldiers.

Not really.
DCG have more intelligent troop selection, but yes, in version 2.2, a tank is equivalent to 1 infantry squad, but the AI doesn't pick between them randomly.

[Nanaki]

Yes, but there were other AT-grenades able to penetrate up to 150mm.


Yup, the PWM-1 developed by the Luftwaffe. The later-war HEAT grenades (such as the RPG-43) also had much greater penetration (75mm). The in-game RPG-43 has a penetration of 100mm and the in-game PWM-1 has a penetration of 120mm. All other AT Grenades have penetrations of 80mm. Of an interesting note, however, the MoW Multiplayer nerfed the non-special AT Grenades (everything but the RPG-43 and PWM-1) to 50mm penetration.

[Kohlrabi]

Are you talking about the future patch (1.16?) or the current patch?

[Nanaki]

Whoops! Was accidentily looking at old data. Here is the code for the Common AT Grenade, RGD-43, and PWM-1.

Common AT Grenades:


{from "pattern throwable"
{tag "ap big"}
{inventory {size 2 1}}
{entity "grenade_rpg40"}

{damage blastwave
{energy 8}
{area 0.2 0.4}
}
{damage add blastwave
{energy 1}
{area 4 8}
}

{throw
{range 12}
{startAngle 90}
{spreading 0.2}
{constantSpeed 10.5}
}
{damage cumulative
{damage 80}
{distance 0.3}
}
{possibleDamageRadius 5}
}


PWM 1:


{from "grenade rpg40"
{entity "grenade_pwm1"}
; (mod "mp"
{damage cumulative
{damage 150}
{distance 1}
}
; )
}


RPG-43


{from "grenade rpg40"
{entity "grenade_rpg43"}
; (mod "mp"
{damage cumulative
{damage 120}
{distance 1}
}
; )
}

[Theriel]

I doubt the majority would be happy about 1000 infantrymen to every tank :)
It is very much possible though, to create operations with more historical ratios.

True. But I d love to see at least 100 infantrymen to every tank

[Snail]

I am new to the game, still play on medium difficulty, but I see mostly a lot of infantry (plus a tank or two). Sometimes there are tanks with support weapons only, but it's rare. I fight Russians.

[antrax]

win a few battles and you will see solid line of tanks from one side of the map to another,then AT grenades come in handy